Is this ich?

[KungFish]

I was checking on my myoglanis koepckei today and I saw one of their tails poking out from under a leaf. When I lifted the leaf, the fish looked like it had ich! Can anyone confirm that? They are so secretive that I didn't catch it until now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlMQB6pkbsk

[cjp155]

It is hard to tell from that video. However, it looks like it might be ich. It is probably a good idea to try and catch the fish to have a better look at it.

[KungFish]

I've already tried to catch it… no luck. They are very fast and very shy.

[Marc van Arc]

Looks like it and imo it's not a good idea to try to catch it, as you will stress it even more.
Were there 2 different specimens in the video? If so they both have it, so I'd say start treating them asap.
Medication (proper!), salt, extra oxygen and a temp raise. That should do the trick.
To my regret I have become an expert in these matters.......

[KungFish]

There was one fish in the video, but I did see another one after I stopped filming. However, I could not see whether it had ich or not.
I've started raising the temperature, and i'll buy some medication later today. Any recommendations for scaleless fish meds ?

[cjp155]

I've used Kordon Rid Ich Plus with no problem. I combined Kordon Rid Ich Plus (follow package directions exactly) with 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons and slowly raised the temp to 86F. I treated this way for 14 days. Fish were clear of ich after 4 days but I continued for a full 14 days, to be sure it was gone.

[Marc van Arc]

Alas, I have no idea which meds are available at your end. Nevertheless, a combi of formalin and methylin (spelling??) blue worked for me, although it is often not recommended with scaleless fishes. From my rather recent experience however, I can tell you that my auchenipterids had no probs with a trifold treatment, combined with a salt addition of 0.5 grammes per liter, a temp raise to 27 degrees C and (therefore) an oxygen raise (warmer water contains less oxygen).
Good luck.

[racoll]

Any recommendations for scaleless fish meds ?

I see this come up again and again. Can someone explain why scaleless fishes need to ich-treated differently to other fishes?

[Marc van Arc]

Any recommendations for scaleless fish meds ?

I see this come up again and again. Can someone explain why scaleless fishes need to ich-treated differently to other fishes?

Over here it's written down specifically in the instructions that come with medicins; "not to be used on (with?) scaleless fishes". And this doesn't only go for anti-Ich meds btw. If it makes any sense and on which this "rule" is based, I can't tell. Based on own experiences most medicins can be used when catfishes are concerned, yet I only use them when "all hope has (nearly) gone". If possible I stick to a temp raise, extra oxygen and salt when Ich has to be defeated.

[racoll]

If it makes any sense and on which this "rule" is based, I can't tell.

I have a suspicion that it's one of these stupid myths in fishkeeping, but was wondering what other people thought about this.

P.S. sorry to the OP for derailing the discussion somewhat. The Myoglanis are awesome, and I hope they pull through. Mods feel free to split if it goes any further.

[Brian2014]

I have no idea if you can get this in the states but i have had good success in the past with esha exit combined with esha fish health boost

[KungFish]

I've set the heater to 82ºf (normal temp 78ºf), and I'm dosing Kordon Ich-attack. I usually use chemical meds as a last resort, but this one looks to be all-natural. I took some water out of the tank to increase the distance between the spray bar and the surface, and it's providing a good amount of agitation and hopefully oxygenation.

[cjp155]

You've wasted your money. Herbal treatments do nothing as far as eliminating the parasite. Also, remember just because you don't see any white specks on the fish does not mean that ich is eliminated. Ich is only visible during the trophant phase. It is doing the theront phase that the aquarist has the opportunity to kill the ich. Ich stops reproducing at aprroximately 86F. Furthermore, at a temperature of *86F the theront phase will come much faster, giving you the opportunity to eliminate this pest quickly. You have not introduced a treatment that will kill the ich. 82F will speed up the life cycle of ich, but since you have not added anything to kill the ich itself, it will continue to reproduce. In fact, by raising the temp to 82F and not adding a chemical such as salt or kordin Rid Ich, etc. to kill the ich, you will only make the problem worse since the ich will now multiply faster. Finally, you really should add an air stone to the aquarium to ease the stress from less oxygen in the water. You need A LOT of surface agitation.

[racoll]

You've wasted your money. Herbal treatments do nothing as far as eliminating the parasite. Also, remember just because you don't see any white specks on the fish does not mean that ich is eliminated. Ich is only visible during the trophant phase. It is doing the theront phase that the aquarist has the opportunity to kill the ich. Ich stops reproducing at aprroximately 86F. Furthermore, at a temperature of *86F the theront phase will come much faster, giving you the opportunity to eliminate this pest quickly. You have not introduced a treatment that will kill the ich. 82F will speed up the life cycle of ich, but since you have not added anything to kill the ich itself, it will continue to reproduce. In fact, by raising the temp to 82F and not adding a chemical such as salt or kordin Rid Ich, etc. to kill the ich, you will only make the problem worse since the ich will now multiply faster. Finally, you really should add an air stone to the aquarium to ease the stress from less oxygen in the water. You need A LOT of surface agitation.

I thoroughly agree with all of this. "Fish-friendly" remedies are generally a very bad idea. In order for the placebo effect to work, you need to first tell the fish!

This parasite can be quite tenacious, so you need to really nuke the tank with the nastiest chemicals money can buy. It kills the filter bacteria? Great! It's harmful to scaleless fishes? Even better! It causes cancer and is banned in many countries? Double the dose then!

I'm being deliberately flippant, but the point is that a fish should in theory be a lot tougher than an ich parasite, even when it's sick. You therefore need to make the tank toxic enough to kill off the parasites, but not quite toxic enough to kill off the fishes. It's a fine line, but this is how it should work. I worry that people using half measures has contributed to this ich superstrain we keep hearing about.

[KungFish]

All right. Tomorrow I will go and buy an air stone, and some medications that actually work. I'll look for rid ich.

[Marc van Arc]

I worry that people using half measures has contributed to this ich superstrain we keep hearing about.

Not to derail this any further, but I think the problem of creating superstrains starts at exporters, importers and even local sellers and their inevitable "preventive" treatments. That is far more likely a reason for diseases to become resistant to meds. Or is my reasoning too simple?

[Viktor Jarikov]

I agree with the medication recommendations. You could see the stickies in this forum for more on ich, salt, etc.: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... lth-Issues I find these very helpful.

I see this come up again and again. Can someone explain why scaleless fishes need to ich-treated differently to other fishes?

I see this too, especially on MFK. Statistically, there appear to be a significant number of people who report that salt at a medication dosage had a deleterious effect on their sick catfish. I was one of these too about 5 years ago but after much more experience I think this is not the case at all.

Now there are reports where hobbyists state they became convinced that scaleless fish are more sensitive to medications other than salt, including formaldehyde. Yet, I've not noticed this either IME.

I worry that people using half measures has contributed to this ich superstrain we keep hearing about.

Not to derail this any further, but I think the problem of creating superstrains starts at exporters, importers and even local sellers and their inevitable "preventive" treatments. That is far more likely a reason for diseases to become resistant to meds. Or is my reasoning too simple?

To me, this totally makes sense. Mass-producers and mass-holders of fish often resort to using low levels of drugs in their entire waterworks to keep ich and other pathogens at bay. Kind of like they use antibiotics on an enormous scale at shrimp farms. And those we eat. What's to say about ornamental fishes?

I've met even with an advice not to use hand sanitizers too much because your own germs that end up on your hands mutate and the sanitizers loose their efficiency when they are needed most, e.g., in an emergency, operating room, etc.

Same with the antibiotic industry wherein there is a constant need to invent new ones.

[KungFish]

So… I ordered Rid Ich with next day shipping on sunday (it was not at any of the local stores)… unfortunately it was delayed and arrived today. I just applied the first dose, but it wasn't soon enough to save 3 of my myoglanis. A bit odd, that they are the only ones who have died. I've seen one individual white spot on a helogenes marmoratus, so the meds arrived just in time. It appears that all denticetopsis are fine.

[TwoTankAmin]

Well, I would not be so quick to claim herbal type remedies are not effective.

Effect of sanguinarine from the leaves of Macleaya cordata against Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in grass carp (Ctenopharyngodon idella)
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 010-1966-z
(Macleaya cordataa is a species of flowering plant in the poppy family Papaveraceae.)

Antiparasitic efficacy of dihydrosanguinarine and dihydrochelerythrine from Macleaya microcarpa against Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in richadsin (Squaliobarbus curriculus)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1711004900
(Macleaya microcarpa is a species of flowering plant in the poppy family Papaveraceae.)

Effects of crude extracts of Mucuna pruriens (Fabaceae) and Carica papaya (Caricaceae) against the protozoan fish parasite Ichthyophthirius multifiliis
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 003-1038-8
(Mucuna pruriens is a tropical legume known as velvet bean. Carica papaya is papaya.)

Effects of aqueous extract of Capsicum frutescens (Solanaceae) against the fish ectoparasite Ichthyophthirius multifiliis
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Fei ... 0f0729.pdf
(Capsicum frutescens is a species of chili pepper.)

I can keep going but it might fill pages. But there is a lot of research into treating Ich. If you want to see how more potential treatments than you imagined existed fared when administered in various ways, then pull up a nice fire by a comfortable chair and read this 2012 paper until your eyes start to spin. The key is the 31 page long table at the end of the study which reports on various treatments for various periods at various strengths:
An assessment of the use of drug and non-drug interventions in the treatment of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet, 1876, a protozoan parasite of freshwater fish
http://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893 ... review.pdf

[racoll]

Well, I would not be so quick to claim herbal type remedies are not effective.

Reminds me of the famous Tim Minchin quote: "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine."

Thanks for the ich review. Looks like a good resource!

[KungFish]

4/4 myoglanis dead

[bekateen]

Sorry to hear this. Don't give up.

Eric

[KungFish]

One of the helogenes doesn't look so good…

[Marc van Arc]

Which fishes are currently in that tank?

[KungFish]

1 Neon tetra (used to be 7), 2 helogenes marmoratus (one is not doing so well), and some denticetopsis (Ordered 5… I consistently see 3-4 at night… sneaky little buggers). The denticetopsis are by far the most resilient.

[Marc van Arc]

Do these fish also have Ich?
If so, you might consider another dose of the med you used and/or adding a little more salt (non-iodined). The salt triggers the slime coat to get thicker, thus giving parasites less chance. Ime your fishes should be able to cope with a salt dosage of 1 gramme per liter (may be less of course).
Also - mind you -: Helogenes are not very friendly towards each other. They seem friendly and docile, but do fight.
If the Ich has already left your tank (hopefully), that may be the reason one isn't looking too well.

Wrt Denticetopsis: well my friend, you'd better get used to that. I've been keeping auchenipterids for more than 25 years and the fact that you are never(!) able to do a proper head count unless you dismantle the tank completely has always been one of the (few) disadvantages imo. And when things go wrong - which of course doesn't only apply to auchenipterids - you are very likely late; if not too late, as you have found out the hard way with your Myoglanis.

[KungFish]

Unfortunately the ich hasn't left. Still on the last tetra, and 2 spots on the ill helogenes. Been using the rid ich… I'll start salt. The smaller of the two helogenes is the ill one… so it could be fighting that gave the ich a way in.

[KungFish]

At least the denticetopsis are looking good...

No, I don't spotlight them like this on a regular basis. Lol.

[KungFish]

The smaller helogenes and the last neon tetra are dead.

[Marc van Arc]

The smaller helogenes and the last neon tetra are dead.

So that leaves 6 fishes for you to monitor closely. Please do so and don't do anything drastic, like a complete water change. Give them some time to refind balance.
If necessary, dose again. If in severe doubt, dose again. Given the victims, you shouldn't take any risks.
If all goed well with the remaining 6, just let them be for a while. And watch their feeding behaviour. Fishes that eat are usually on their way back to good health.