How to tell if a Tadpole Madtom is Mature? FRY PICTURES!!!

[nvcichlids]

This morning was a success!!! After about 50 nets of topminnows, bugs, and mudminnows (kept 3 mudminnows) I got a single net with two!!! I will post pictures of the local and the fish hopefully on my lunch hour. I know for a face that I got a male female pair today (was able to sex them in the bag I brought them home in.) I need to rework my tank as now I am afraid I don't have enough hiding spots for all the tmadtoms!

[Birger]

Excellent...nice catch

Just an update, my large madtom and the biggest of the smaller were in the cave last night together

Do not mean to shoot down your excitement but mine seem to do this a lot...sometimes I have even seen all crunched up in one spot together while othertimes they are protective and will isolate themselves...little bit moody.

Birger

[nvcichlids]

Do not mean to shoot down your excitement but mine seem to do this a lot...sometimes I have even seen all crunched up in one spot together while othertimes they are protective and will isolate themselves...little bit moody.
Birger

No I agree.. it was false hope! I am looking into a few more cave ideas to hopefully prompt them into it. I have noticed that everytime I have found them they are in groups of 2 (normally) and are in the roots of grass in the shore or in the overhanging grass as well.

Thjey escaped their holding container and got into the main tank, so I will have to fish them out for pictures.

[nvcichlids]

is there a specific type of cave I should be offering them? I know the last two I caught were male/female pair and want to make sure everything is set for the breeding. I have rocks stacked with different ledges they can go under, but removed all the driftwood from the tank as I didn't like how it was looking. I will work on pictures again of all 6 saturday morning (well 5, as the tiny one is NO WHERE NEAR sexable.)

[apistomaster]

I found some brooding in old beer cans.
Do you think you should be doing massive water changes since it sounds like they are coming from the high water season which should be the prelude to their actual local breeding season?
I get the impression the rain fall is higher than usual but even so, they are probably attuned to the end of a high water period to begin spawning.
It has been unusually wet and cool in my area this Spring and Summer which combined with this last Winter's larger than normal snow pack melting has created very high Spring run off river levels out here. Most of the introduced catfish and Spiny ray fish do not yet have access to their preferred spawning sites. It will change to very hot weather any time and that will be followed quickly by a drop to more normal river flows. I'm sure those in the lakes are on schedule but not those in the streams. There are many native fish which are adapted to breeding at high water flows so those species are not affected negatively by the high run off levels. Many of the smaller streams will drop very quickly and become little more than trickles soon after the heat hits.

[nvcichlids]

I am finding mine in the main stream of the river on the edges in overhanging grass and or root balls. I am trying to find some small "branches (less than a 1/4" thick so it kind of looks like a leafless bush" to see if they prefer hiding in such a thing. I have been doing waterchanges with cooler water (66 degree water where normal temp is at 70/72) and they are getting more and more active, and have notice some "biting" of just before the tail fin, but not sure how to give them a push in the right direction.

[Birger]

is there a specific type of cave I should be offering them?

Steve's picture shows that overturned flowerpots seem to work....or a fake beer can made of pvc with the ends blocked with slate or tile siliconed on...or a real beer can very natural

Birger

[nvcichlids]

my largest two madtoms would not be able to fit inside a beer can....

[apistomaster]

I found those I have mentioned inside the old style cans which had to be opened by a can opener. The cans predated pull tops by decades. The opening size formed by can opener is larger than the pull tab types and the specimens were not as large as your largest.

[The.Dark.One]

As Birger mentions, ours bred in an overturned ceramic plant pot with a small hole chipped in for entry.

[nvcichlids]

Thanks for the responses guys. I went out this morning and didn't catch really anything (well I caught starhead topminnows, but those are protected in our state, so I just admired them.) I am adding a few more plants and still looking for the driftwood i want.

I am also working on a couple of other cave designes. The flowerpot I will try, and I am taking a small peanut butter container and cutting a hole in the plastic top so it is just big enough for the biggun to fit in.

When yours bred, did they do tail biting as a courting ritual? Mine seem to be doing this, not causing damage, but letting the others know they are there?

[The.Dark.One]

When yours bred, did they do tail biting as a courting ritual? Mine seem to be doing this, not causing damage, but letting the others know they are there?

Because of where the tank was situated we didn't realise they were breeding until we saw him guarding the egg clutch.

[nvcichlids]

still working on my caves, and didn't go out collecting this morning. I am hoping still to get 6 more.

[nvcichlids]

Storms have been delaying my trips to collect more.. although the fishing has been great in a local pond.. went out for 20 minutes and caught 30+ 6" bluegills in spawning colors! I wish it was legal to take a pair home with me... ahwell... will be going out friday morning this week and HOPEFULLY will have some luck!

[apistomaster]

I used to visit the ponds about 2 months after the Blue Gills and Pumpkin Seeds have left their spawning beds and 1 inch juveniles are plentiful in the weeds along the shore. I always catch more than I need.
The Pumpkin Seeds are smaller than Blue Gills but the breeding males are as pretty as some Discus. The juveniles have sparkles of blue which makes them pretty. We have few Green sunfish which seem to be a little smaller than Pumpkin Seeds but are also pretty. They are good native aquarium fish and they act a lot like many of the more peaceful large Cichlids. I keep them with small Bullheads and a couple small crayfish.
If you keep fishing for Madtoms you should eventually catch some young Sunnies, too.
I don't have as many Blue Gill spots but when I can hit them on their nesting beds they are a blast to catch on very light weight fly rods. They have a lot of fight per inch and I caught one male that was 10 inches once. That is pretty large for Blue Gills in the PNW and a personal trophy Blue gill.

[nvcichlids]

Thanks for that Larry, I have actually caught quite a few sunnies, but its illegal to take any game fish from a body of water alive in our state. We have strict rules on it. I had caught some young rockbass, green sunfish, pumpkin seeds and longear sunfish this year while collecting madtoms (also found some long nose gar, northern pike and musky fry with them as well.)

As far as the greens being smaller than the pumpkin seeds, in our area, the green sunfish is MUCH larger than any other sunfish. It isn't uncommon to catch a green sunfish that is 12"+ where pumpkin seeds max out at 8, bluegills around 10-12 and the largest (i believe) green sunfish was like 17" The greens put up the best fight of any around here as they are built like smallmouth bass, wich in my opinion is the best fight per inch game fish in the US. (caught a 24" SMALLIE with a 22" girth about 7 years ago.)

[apistomaster]

I had to check out the maximum sizes of green Sunfish and I see they often are larger than Blue Gills. They are not common here and the few ponds where I have found them have small Pumpkinseed and small Greens. Without the right climate, habitat and optimum stocking levels many sunnies develop stunted populations. This is very common in the PNW where the waters are better suited for Trout and Salmon. I find them in a riverside pond connected to the river by culverts under the road. The pond is heavily stocked with hatchery Rainbows and the sunfish run very small, A 5 inch Pumpkinseed is a large specimen in this pond and they out number Greens by about 8:1.

[nvcichlids]

i took some pictures of all my madtoms last night, two of which I think I got decent shots of the genitalia... hopefully they are opposite sex.

[nvcichlids]

Well here are the images as promised.. they will be posted from smallest to largest.

Group in bucket waiting to be photographed:


Smallest:

Madtom 2:

Madtom 3:

Madtom 4:

the next two are the two largest and they have been sharing a cave together.
Madtom 5:


Largest Madtom:




are the last two's pictures good enough for sexing?

[apistomaster]

I think the ripe females are self evident. I think you have a pair between those last two.
You now have an enviable collection of Tadpole Madtom Catfish.
I wish you success with your venture. Having your first brood would be very satisfying.

[nvcichlids]

Larry I want your opinion, does Madtom 2 look like it has eggs?

[nvcichlids]

THEY HAVE BRED AND I FOUND A FRY!!!

He doesn't look very old. Well I shouldn't say I found him, but he was caught by someone taking care of my fish while on vacation and put into a baby container and he was seen swimming around this morning. These are the two images they emailed to me!

image 1 of fry

image 2 of fry!

Wo0ot!!!

[MatsP]

Congratulations. If you get some nicer photos, can we have them for the Cat-eLog.

--
Mats

[nvcichlids]

when I get back home i will do a photo session with him and check if there are more so there are some images for you guys

[apistomaster]

Some of the last females sure looked like they were ready to role. I did not keep count of which fish went with each numbered photo but the ripe females seemed self evident and any larger specimen lacking the golden color produced by the ripe ovaries and were more slender in the belly, I assumed would be the males.
Cool that they spawned and hopefully you will get more chances when you return home where you can monitor things more closely. All ripe female Ictalurid Catfish I have cleaned/dissected had large eggs a little like plecos.
Many of those large Channel Cats I have cleaned contained large tapeworms over 30 inches long. It might be wise to treat them for worms either the small immature specimens now and the adults after their breeding season is over. This could be helpful when the next year's breeding season is upon you. Our native wild catfish have as many potential parasites as our tropical imported species.

[Jools]

when I get back home i will do a photo session with him and check if there are more so there are some images for you guys

Brilliant, I have some of these guys too and it'd be great to learn more. I am inspired to try these guys again! Did you do anything before you went away on vacation?

Jools

[nvcichlids]

The only thing different is they are getting red worms (I fed them a little more heavily than before, not knowing the effect they may have on the digestion of the madtoms.) Are red worms considered the same as earthworms and affect their digestions because none of mine have had any problems with the red worms (not even sure of hte scientific name of hte worms I am feeding them but they are called red worms/red wigglers) and other than that they get blood worms once a week, brine shrimp once a week *(both live) and mysis shrimp (freeze dried as I got a 10 lb package of them from San Fransisco Bay brand to test when it first was coming out.) They might occasionally eat the brine shrimp flake and earthworm flake that the other fish get (darters, topminnows and minnows)

[apistomaster]

Red Wiggler worms or Compost Worms as they are also called are Eosina foetida. Also known as manure worms which is where their specific name comes from, as in fetid=stink.
Some fish do not like them but plenty of fish do. The growing media probably makes all the difference in the world when it come to their fish appeal.

[nvcichlids]

Thanks for that info larry! They seem to love these guys and I will go through 30-40 of them a week with the now 9 adults in the tank (needless to say the darters also eat them.)

[The.Dark.One]

Congratulations