L46 and the Belo Monte dam

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Mike_Noren »

Janne wrote:Why don't NGO's like WWF, International Rivers or CI for example send out a bulletine to the world press?
Can we suspect other interest behind the silence?
I have talked to a lot of people about it, and have been given two reasons why they would not push the issue here in europe:
1) they felt Brazil was extremely nationalistic, and brazilian public opinion would react negatively to "outside interference" in the form of international pressure.
2) the view that there is only room for one environmental issue at a time, and that talking about dams in the Amazon (or the even worse ones on the Mekong) would take attention away from global warming.
My view was and is that the "silent diplomacy" approach doesn't work when it comes to government-caused environmental issues, and that ignoring a present and immediate threat and focussing on a hypothetical future one is idiotic.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne »

Shane wrote:The extinction of the ngege (small c*****ds) has been noted as "the greatest mass extinction of vertebrates in recorded human history." Let that thought sink in a bit...
Rio Madeira, Rio Xingu, Rio Tapajos (Amazonas), Congo River (Democratic Republic of Congo) and southeast Asia with Mekong river and many other rivers through the whole tropical belt around the world... if all these projects fullfills we will wipe out so many species that the extinction of species in Lake Victoria will appear like it had never take place.
Shane wrote:The US is providing $360 million a year in Uganda to treat Ugandans with HIV/AIDS. Not a dollar of funding, to my knowledge, is provided to help protect the lake.
How much money does all NGO's together receive each year from donations etc? Must be a few billion USD, of course they have and are doing a lot for many different projects around the world to protect mammals and reefs in the tropic oceans, things that are easy to see and are apreciated in general among us humans, I think one of the problems NGO's may have is to make all problems visible for everyone so it can get accepted to be protected... or something similar like that.
Mike_Noren wrote:they felt Brazil was extremely nationalistic, and brazilian public opinion would react negatively to "outside interference" in the form of international pressure.
It's true and the government is probably quite tired to listen on NGO's etc. but one positive thing is that people in general here in Brazil are being more and more engaged to protect their enviroment... they even demonstrate on the streets here in Belém sometimes, I think they are quite open to receive help from international organisations even if that is not so popular among the authorities.

I also agree with that NGO's has to be focused on both, devastating of the nature that is ongoing (that contributes to the climate change) and second the climate change itself...

The funders...
http://equator-principles.com/
...and how it works in the reality.
http://www.banktrack.org/

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by matthewfaulkner »

From the maps Ive looked at the Belo Monte dam is located quite far down length of the entire river. How far up the river will the dam effect? Are there any other dams planned/preposed upstream?
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by grokefish »

Oh dear.

Janne is quite correct, if enough information can be gathered then there is an outside chance that some of the river can be saved, it is more likely than if no information is gathered.
Sadly if you are around on the day the dam is completed it will be easy and cost effective to collect specimens as they flap around helplessly in the dry river bed or float to the surface after being starved of oxygen.
Are Parancustrus species affected by this plan?
The scale of this dam and it's ecological destruction is unbelievable it'll probably be on sky TV on extreme engineering one day, I wonder if they will highlight the destruction and loss of biodiversity that occurs in the program? :evil:

Green power production eh.
One more bucket of water and the farce is complete.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne »

Matt wrote:From the maps Ive looked at the Belo Monte dam is located quite far down length of the entire river. How far up the river will the dam effect? Are there any other dams planned/preposed upstream?
The 2 dams will be where the diversity are as greatest and of course they have affect upstrems the river, from beginning there was 7 dam planned along xingu... how many it finally will be I think no one knows for sure yet.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by wrasse »

Janne, I hope it gets across to you how passionate we all are about the Xingu. I reckon we all envy what you have outside your back door. I'm sure everyone on this forum would like to see it preserved and protected.
I don't think the people of the UK for starters, have a clue of what's going on with the Bel Amonte dam and its implications, they haven't heard of it. I reckon the news-makers expose us to a certain amount of environmental concerns, and I reckon they decide on how much... so as not to over-load us with environmental 'stuff'. After all, they don't want us to switch channels.
So in your opinion, is there something that Planet Catfish could do, collectively, to support and highlight the conservation work being done and what's needed? Is it realistic to ask this? I do hope Jools and all concerned don't mind this question being asked - I don't mean to tread on any toes... I guess a forum is where issues are discussed, not where action is taken...?
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne »

wrasse wrote:So in your opinion, is there something that Planet Catfish could do, collectively, to support and highlight the conservation work being done and what's needed? Is it realistic to ask this?
The problem is that no real conservation have been started yet, thats a question for the court to force IBAMA to fulfill what they should already have started. What I can see is not that we can prevent that the dam is built, but with some forces we may can have some influence over the construction make it as less devastating as possible... absolutely force them to not dry out the big bend. The other part of my projects is to create breeding programs for certain species (can't breed them all) but that is both of commercial nature and to provide local and federal universities possibilities for research etc.

But Animal Planet maybe should make a documentary about Rio xingu... it was little pitty they chosed the wrong rivers when they made the Amazonas underwater movie (don't remember the name). Rio xingu is one of the most beautiful places on earth both under and above the water, much easier for underwater pictures and where else can you swim with 2-2,5 m Plesiotrygon iwamae (I think fishBase put the size ~60 cm) in clear water, hundreds of colourful plecos and other fishes.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Shane »

it will be easy and cost effective to collect specimens as they flap around helplessly in the dry river bed or float to the surface after being starved of oxygen.
Having now done quite a bit of collecting in and around the Owen Falls Dam at Jinja, I have come across a huge negative factor that I never before realized was an issue: temperature. Flow through the dam is stopped at some point in the middle of the night to start building up the water reserves that will be needed the next evening when electricity demands are highest.
As the sun rises the water level of the river downstream from the dam slowly lowers all day as flow is cut to a trickle. It gets several degrees warmer than what it did before the dam was built. At the same time all day water is building up at a depth behind the dam and it is very cold as it is deep, not wide, and thus the vast majority of the water is not warmed by the sun.
Power consumption peaks about 6 pm so the dam opens its gates at about 5 pm to start generating electricity. The new water coming from behind the dam may be as cold as 60F, while the fish have spent the day in a river all day that might reach 80F. Also, because this release process takes place at night that cool water coming from the dam stays cold for several miles downstream.
As aquarists, I do not need to explain the impact on most tropical fishes that comes with dropping the temperature quickly by such severe amounts day after day.
The "new" method of fishing is to trap or pick up animals stunned by the temperature drop.

This "cycle" probably has little impact when a hydroelectric dam is built on a temperate body of water. However, the impact on a tropical body of water is huge as stable temps are one of the conditions the animals are adapted to. I wonder if anyone has ever studied this?

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Suckermouth »

Shane wrote:This "cycle" probably has little impact when a hydroelectric dam is built on a temperate body of water. However, the impact on a tropical body of water is huge as stable temps are one of the conditions the animals are adapted to. I wonder if anyone has ever studied this?

-Shane
A quick search on Google scholar says yes, but I can't be bothered to actually read any of them at this moment.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Jools »

wrasse wrote:So in your opinion, is there something that Planet Catfish could do, collectively, to support and highlight the conservation work being done and what's needed? Is it realistic to ask this? I do hope Jools and all concerned don't mind this question being asked - I don't mean to tread on any toes... I guess a forum is where issues are discussed, not where action is taken...?
There's already conservation planning in progress as kicked off at the international plecos event. Janne has also been invited, some time ago now, to write all of this up for a more permanent article (or series of articles) to allow others to get a view of the situation.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by 2wheelsx2 »

Jools wrote: There's already conservation planning in progress as kicked off at the international plecos event. Janne has also been invited, some time ago now, to write all of this up for a more permanent article (or series of articles) to allow others to get a view of the situation.

Jools
That would be great. It would give us (meaning me) who have very little background and current knowledge on the situation, a lot more insight on what's happening there and how to prevent it elsewhere from happening, if at all possible.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by apistomaster »

There are many engineering features which can help mitigate down stream effects of dams and to account for the migrating species of large Characins which would not cost much. Temperature control is easy; let more water from the bottom of the reservoir cool the downstream minimum flows. Fish ladders work for salmon but not well. Some projects in the USA on dams placed on the Columbia River tributaries(large rivers in their own right) are experimenting with small side stream flows in lieu of traditional fish ladders to increase the number of returning fish passage. Down stream migration is more problematic. Presently the fish are driven to confined areas in the reservoir then captured, placed in tanker trucks then transported below the dams. Still not a great solution but it beats going through the generator turbines and experiencing abrupt pressure changes which induce nitrogen bubbles from forming similar to the bends. I am sure there are other design features and techniques yet to be discovered which are more appropriate for tropical fish species. Maintaining at least a minimum flow through the down stream river's course is an extremely important and most easily controlled aspect of the problems to be addressed.

Behind the impoundments, in the resulting reservoirs, there are many other problems which are more intractable to engineering and management fixes.
There will be very drastic shifts in the cross section of fish which will prosper like they never did before and other species that will not be able to adapt.
The body of science pertaining to the effects of damming major tropical rivers is not as extensive as those that are available in the temperate zones such as the Columbia River system in the Pacific Northwestern USA. Salmon and the sea run Rainbow Trout(Steel Head) have been well studied. We have too many damned dams on the Columbia River drainage system and many interested parties. The Native American Tribes in this region are well organized and their treaty rights have been enforced to ensure they are able to continue their fishing traditions by Federal Court Orders where necessary. Since the Columbia River System affects at least 4 states and British Colombia, Canada, there are well established camps of those concerned with the environmental aspects and those which represent the big business concerns which see some very desirable stretches of the rivers which they would love to build even more dams. Many rulings and laws have mitigated some egregious design and management problems there will remain many issues yet to resolved for the next 100 years.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Mike_Noren »

apistomaster wrote:There are many engineering features which can help mitigate down stream effects of dams and to account for the migrating species of large Characins which would not cost much.
There are possible mitigation efforts yes, but my impressions is that the entire problem has been completely ignored. There is no species list for Xingu and according to the international biodiversity databases the Xingu is extremely species-poor, with just a single endemic species!; the EIA completely ignored aquatic lifeforms; I've seen no environmental organization show public concern for the aquatic species of the Xingu; and every single piece of news I could google were about the displacement of native tribes (important, but to my mind less important than the extinction of double digits of unique vertebrate species).

From my vantage point, 1000 kilometers from the Xingu, it seems there are no mitigation efforts for the fish because politically speaking the issue doesn't exist. It's been completely swept under the rug.
Behind the impoundments, in the resulting reservoirs, there are many other problems which are more intractable to engineering and management fixes.
The first one will be that the water in the dam turns anoxic while it is filled, due to the vast amounts of rotting vegetation. There are eye-witness accounts of how there were literal "heaps" of dead loricariidae, Teleocichla, and other rheophilic species killed by the rotten water when the Tucurui dam was filled. Then when the dam starts producing electricity, the rotten, oxygen-free and hydrogen sulphide-rich, water moves like a "plug" down river, killing sensitive fish for miles downstream.
Breeding cycles of many local fish are disrupted partly because they're no longer able to migrate, but also because there no longer will be any seasonal change in flow.
In the dam itself there will for 5-10 years be a fishery bonanza, due to opportunistic and introduced fish species taking advantage of the enormous amounts of plankton and insect larvae eating all the rotting vegetation.
Then, 25-30 years after the dam was built, it'll typically start silting up and isn't producing much electricity any more; the downstream riverbed is also silting up, resulting in floodings; the fishery in the dam declines sharply; pollution, especially mercury poisoning, becomes a problem around the dam; the bulk of the remaining fishery depends on introduced species; and of the fish species originally found in the area only 20-40% remain (most in tiny refugia, and the commercial ones depend on captive breeding programmes to not go extinct).

At this point, the people who brought you the dam have long since moved on to making new fortunes from new dams in new biodiversity hotspots.

Does anyone know what the projected lifespan of the Xingu dam is? I've been unable to find an estimate.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by apistomaster »

Mike,
You did a pretty good job of describing the typical seqence of events following the completion of a dam.
Most trees of value will be harvested both for they and to minimize to trash which has to be kept out of the generators' penstock so you might have overestimated the anoxic phase. Even that can be mitigated by the rate the impoundment is filled and how well the future basin is scarified.
There is so much I do not know about the scope of site preparation that is part of the contract.
All most of can go on is what and how similar dams were dealt with other than the heroic rescues of monkeys from to tops of submerged trees. If the past is any use as a predictor of how future projects will be handled then the outlook is poor for all life in the drainage.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne »

Rio Xingu is a clear water river and don't carry so much silt so that will be a problem, the forest around Altamira and Belo Monte is heavily logged due to cattle farming but it will contribute with rotting material in the dams.
In all I agree with the rest, the dams will cause enormous damages on the environment and why there are only 1 species listed as endemic is a mystery... I can count much more endemic species than I have fingers and toes and my friends too fingers and toes too. No NGO nor IUCN or any other organisation working to protect all the animals on earth have a clue how many species there are in Rio Xingu and probably nor either in any other river in South America or other continents... except Europe and North America.
Mike_Noren wrote:At this point, the people who brought you the dam have long since moved on to making new fortunes from new dams in new biodiversity hotspots.
These people are now working with Santo Antonio dam in Rio Madeira, then they move on to next dam Jirau in the same river and then Rio Xingu and than they will build 6 dams in Madre de Dios in Peru and than they will build the dams in Bolivia and than... The whole Amazonas is soon under construction.
Mike_Noren wrote:Does anyone know what the projected lifespan of the Xingu dam is? I've been unable to find an estimate.
If you find any estimated lifespan for Tucurui you can use that for Belo Monte, both rivers are like twins.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Mike_Noren »

Janne wrote:
Mike_Noren wrote:Does anyone know what the projected lifespan of the Xingu dam is? I've been unable to find an estimate.
If you find any estimated lifespan for Tucurui you can use that for Belo Monte, both rivers are like twins.
According to the Tucurui Dam case study ( http://www.internationalrivers.org/files/csbrmain.pdf (and a very depressing read it is too)) the estimated lifespan of that project is 50 years.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by celticfish »

Maybe we can get back to the more specific topic of the L46 and the consequence of the dam?

Janne,
Much regret that you were not able to speak during the recent L-Numbers Day.
It would have been very interesting to hear of your project.
Hans Evers did tantalize us with some photos and a brief of what you are doing though.
And three cheers to you for doing something by going to Brazil where the most help can be done! :thumbsup:
Maybe I give up my job and go Brazil too... still thinking about it... :?:

From your picture of the dam, I'm incline to believe that the L46 in the dammed up area will not be able to continue thriving.
The dammed up areas always have anerobic bottom areas right behind the dam called "dead zones".
Rendering it un-inhabitable for bottom dwelling fish.
So that leaves only the 3 spots at the cut-off elbow.

If the allow project allows some water to flow through the elbow area enough to classify as a river then there may be hope they continue to exist in this area.
Though I'm sure competition will be very much greater with the river being much smaller than it was.

The worst case being that the area is totally cut-off by the dam project.
This would mean the elbow area turns into a lake (if enough water flows from the single tributory in the map).
In this case I'm incline to believe they may go upstream of the single tributory.
Again the competition will be much greater than before.

In essence this single un-named tributory would be the greatest hope for H. zebras (and all fish in the elbow area) continued existence in the wild.
Do you think the size of this tributory will be able to sustain the "refugees" from the elbow area?
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is the primary reason that the zebra habitat is so limited is the result of their needs combined with the geography/topography of the river. They live in warm water and also have a need for high oxygen levels in that water. The required oxygen level is created and maintained by the rapids which border their habitat. My understanding is that once you go beyond these "boundry" rapids on either end there are stretches of calmer less well oxygenated water. These waters create a natural lower oxygen boundry which the fish can not survive in and thus which makes it impossible for them to migrate to other suitable areas of the river.

What it boils down to is simple. There are billions to be made from the dams- from building them, to selling the electricity and to using that power to make even more money from mining, agriculture etc. There is no money made from preserving species. If you could magically catch 100% of the zebras in the Xingu and then could sell them to fishkeepers across the globe, the money generated is a pittance compared to the amounts involved in the whole damming project and what results from it. Nothing anybody says or does will change that.

The only real hope for most of the fish species in rivers to be dammed is to get them into tanks across the globe and hope that is enough. Moving them to a similar habitat will not help much in the long run. What makes their habitat suitable for these species to live is also what makes damming that habitat possible and profitable. No matter what river one might be able to put them into will eventually get dammed anyway by the same forces and folks who are promoting and building the current dams.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Linus_Cello »

Some recent news on the Belo Monte dam (maybe James Cameron keeps L46? lol)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100412/en ... nvironment
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Suckermouth »

His concern appears to be, not surprisingly, for the indigenous people, but obviously the region is important to the people as much as it is to the endemic fishes.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by MatsP »

Linus_Cello wrote:Some recent news on the Belo Monte dam (maybe James Cameron keeps L46? lol)
I found another news source that had essentially the same message. I suspect James Cameron, from the wording of the press release, has other reasons for this, but who knows if he has ulterior/further motives. Whatever the reason, it's good for us too!

Is there any way we can get this spread a bit more?

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by krazyGeoff »

MatsP wrote:
Linus_Cello wrote:Some recent news on the Belo Monte dam (maybe James Cameron keeps L46? lol)
I found another news source that had essentially the same message. I suspect James Cameron, from the wording of the press release, has other reasons for this, but who knows if he has ulterior/further motives. Whatever the reason, it's good for us too!

Is there any way we can get this spread a bit more?

--
Mats
This news has also made it to television in New Zealand, which made me quite happy to see.
I hope that he gathers some momentum, and does not fade away quickly.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by tobalman »

Brazil Suspends Belo Monte Dam!

Copied from -
http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/5288

It’s been a fabulous couple of weeks for the campaign to stop the massive Belo Monte Dam on the Amazon’s Xingu River. Momentum is building - in public opinion, in the courts and in the legislature - so much so that a Federal Court yesterday suspended the project’s development!


It all started last week when construction giants Odebrecht and Camarga Correa - no strangers to controversial dam projects - announced that they werenot interested in building the project because it was not economically viable at the price set by the Brazilian government. This has left the government scrambling to find other potential bidders for the project, resulting in delays in the date for finalizing expressions of interest in the project.

The lack of economic viability is no surprise to the coalition of groups fighting the dam, who have long argued that the dam is an expensive way to deliver energy to Brazil. While the project’s installed capacity will be more than 11,000 MW, during the 3-4 month low water season it will generate as little as 1,000 MW of power, leaving most of the project’s turbines at a standstill. Such a small generating capacity for several months of the year doesn’t justify the high investment cost of more than US$10 billion.

The exit of these two powerful construction companies caused President Lula to show his true colors. He sputtered that “There’s one thing you can be sure of: we'll do Belo Monte” whether or not the private sector is interested in investing, despite having promised last year not to "shove Belo Monte down anyone's throats."


But President Lula may have more on his hands than he bargained for. On Monday, James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver lent their star power to the campaign, joining a protest of more than 700 dam-affected and indigenous people in Brasilia to demand the cancellation of the project. James Cameron said he was being “drawn into a situation where a real-life Avatar confrontation is in progress. What’s happening in Avatar is happening in Brazil and places like India and China, where traditional villages are displaced by big infrastructure projects.”

The protest got massive media attention, beaming news of the controversial project across the globe, and leading President Lula to lash out at international critics of the project, stating that "those who already destroyed their own environment don't need to be coming here making guesses about ours." Ironically, its the promoters of Belo Monte who are making guesses about their environment: there are still many unanswered questions about the project and its impacts.


As if the prayers of Monday’s protestors were heard, yesterday a Federal Court ordered the suspension of Belo Monte’s provisional environmental license and the cancellation of the auction, scheduled for next Tuesday. The decision is in response to a civil action filed by Brazil’s Federal Attorneys, who claim that the project violates a section of the constitution concerning the exploitation of water resources on indigenous lands. This is a huge setback for the government, who will presumably appeal the decision to a higher court.

But the Federal Attorneys still have at least one more action up their sleeve, which was also filed last week. They are questioning irregularities in the approval of the environmental license for the project, including blatant disregard for the arguments and concerns presented during the public hearings and failure to consider any scientific data about what sort of water releases would be required to maintain life along the Big Bend of the Xingu. The environmental licensing process at IBAMA was beset by irregularities, and two senior officials resigned due to the political pressure they were receiving to approve the environmental license for the project.

To top it all off, concerns are growing in the national congress about the project. Last week, at ahearing in the Environmental Commission of the House of Representatives, the House and Senate agreed to conduct a joint investigation into the Belo Monte, Estreito and Madeira dam projects. Senator Marina Silva, former Environmental Minister and Green Party Presidential Candidate, is organizing a Senate hearing on the involvement of the Brazilian national development bank, BNDES, in bankrolling Amazonian dam projects, and Senator Pedro Simon called for transparency and oversight in the auction process, expressing concern about the government’s plans to use state pension funds to finance the project.

As sure as the Xingu is flowing, momentum is building on the campaign. Lula better watch his back, because the struggle certainly ain’t over yet!
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne »

Good news :thumbsup:
And now we have to keep it in the right direction.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Suckermouth »

Wow, this is fantastic news. It is good to know that it's not just aquarists and the indigenous people, but also others who care about the environment. I am happy for this step forward, but Janne is right, we are not out of troubled waters yet.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by MatsP »

The actual news here:
http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/5287

As Janne says, have to keep going in the right direction!

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by plecoboy »

Awesome news.... In the meantime if some of the L numbers could be scientifically described, then maybe the government's environmental study would be more accurate and show what would really be lost if they build a dam.
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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Jools »

plecoboy wrote:In the meantime if some of the L numbers could be scientifically described, then maybe the government's environmental study would be more accurate and show what would really be lost if they build a dam.
Indeed, better leave them all in there then rather than smuggle them out? I worry though that this is only a stay of execution.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by MatsP »

Jools wrote:Indeed, better leave them all in there then rather than smuggle them out? I worry though that this is only a stay of execution.
Absolutely, this is not at all finished. But a stay of execution a week before the execution is definitely a good thing.

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Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne »

This first court decission was to stop the auction, next prosecution have been prepared for some time... and we will see what happen after that... the government will be put back to zero for some years I hope. In the meantime we can put attention to the world showing the real facts behind this project, show the real biodiversity... maybe even convince some of the NGO's that there are more than 1 species endemic to this river ;)

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