Tankmates for Crenicichla wallacii

[nvcichlids]

Hello everyone. I am setting up a 33 gallon XL for my apistogramma sp. I do not want to keep bumblebees in there, no corydoras, so what is left? Would my best bet be a panque species? I was thinking clown plecos or a paraoto sp. Are there any others that would be suggested?

[Bas Pels]

Not wanting to keep Microglanis or Corysoras suggests you are afraid of predation - as the Microglanis is very nocturnal and the corydoras are diurnal, the moment of activity will not be the issue

Small Tatia, and related species are, admitted, also quite fond of small fish, but they feed from the surface, and Apistogramma remain on the bottom

Just as Apistogramma, they like a lot of wood in their tank, so that will not be a problem

Obviously, small Panaque are also an option, but one would not exclude the other

[apistomaster]

If you want to breed the Apistogramma and keep some catfish your viable choices are few.
I am afflicted by the Apistogramma bug yet have so many catfish that it is hard to combine any in an Apistogramma breeding tank. I guess about the only catfish I would trust would be some Otocinclus or small Parotocinclus spp.

My preference is to use 10 gal tanks for breeding my Apistogramma and not have any other fish in their breeding tank. I frequently use artificial hatching of my first spawn of an Apistogramma sp to assure their continued existence. Apistos often die at very inopportune times. One thing that has worked for me is to use my Pleco fry grow out tanks as also my Apistogramma fry grow out tanks.
I have had adult Corydoras sterbai eat entire spawn o Apistogramma numbering about 70, ten days fry swimming fry almost overnight.

[nvcichlids]

Not wanting to keep Microglanis or Corysoras suggests you are afraid of predation - as the Microglanis is very nocturnal and the corydoras are diurnal, the moment of activity will not be the issue

Small Tatia, and related species are, admitted, also quite fond of small fish, but they feed from the surface, and Apistogramma remain on the bottom

Just as Apistogramma, they like a lot of wood in their tank, so that will not be a problem

Obviously, small Panaque are also an option, but one would not exclude the other

Yeah, I do not want predation, plus, I already have a tank of microglanis. I really do not like corydoras, but I do keep some in some tanks. I might do the oto's

[nvcichlids]

well my plans are changing a bit, instead of apistos, its going to be Crenicichla wallaci. WOuld this change any of your recommendations?

[apistomaster]

I had to do a double take to be certain i responded to an Apistogramma question when you were really asking about the dwarf crenicichla spp.
I have kept separate groups of C. regani, C. compressiceps and C. wallecii.
C. regani and C. wallaceii behave identically. C. compressiceps can be ruthlessly deadly to each other over time.
C. wallacii are quite peaceful with other fish. I have kept them with a variety of Hypancistrus spp., Peckoltia L134, Ancistrus cirrhosus, Panaque sp. L204 and Corydoras sterbai.
Other fish I have kept my dwarf Pike Cichlids with include Apistogramma spp, Discus, Black Phantom Tetras, Triafasciatus Pencilfish, Silver hatchetfish and Copella. The Dwarf Pikes never bothered any other fish except the Apistogramma borelli fry that hatched in the same tank never made it. Dwarf Pikes are specialists when it comes to preying on Apistogramma fry.

If you wish to breed your C. wallacii do not keep any of the Plecos with them until the fry have become free swimming.
A persistent pleco may be able to overcome the female Dwarf pike's defense of a nest and eat her eggs or larvae.

[Mike_Noren]

I think it very much depends on the individual fish - a friend of mine kept a group of five C. wallacii in a planted 400 liter tank with lots of caves, and I am 100% certain that no Apistogramma, of any species, would have lasted more than seconds. They were extremely aggressive and predatory fish which he fed adult guppies and platies, and at 10-15 cm TL they weren't really all that "dwarf" either.

[apistomaster]

Relative to the rest of the pike cichlids, some of which easily exceed 20 inches, C. wallacii at 5 to 6 inches total length, are considered to be among the 4 named Dwarf Crenicichla species. The only other I have not kept yet is Crenicichla notothalmus.

None of my Dwarf Pike would even eat feeder Guppies and even Cherry Shrimp were able to keep going in their tanks. They preferred live Black Worms, mosquito larvae and frozen blood worms.
These have been my personal experiences with 3 groups of six of 3 out of 4 species of Dwarf Pikes. Dwarf Pikes expend most of their aggression on each other.
I also kept them in well planted tanks with lots of wood. They need to have cover to get a break from each other.

[racoll]

I kept a single male Crenicichla wallaceii (although I think it was actually C. cf. regani), and like Larry, I found it to be very peaceful to other fishes, even small things like chocolate gouramis.

I'm not sure how they react to members of their own species though, but if they are anything like C. compressiceps (which they may not necessarily be) then you will find the 33g tank too small.

Any tankmate will work in my opinion, providing the are both peaceful and like the same kind of conditions. Breeding time may be a different issue though, as the Crenicichla may become more aggressive, and many catfishes will prey on eggs and fry.

Also, soft water is essential for them I think.

[Mike_Noren]

This is very interesting for me to hear, because seeing those wallacii, twice the size and ten times as mean as a kribensis, led me to avoid all dwarf Crenicichla. I've had quite enough of hyperaggressive and predatory cichlids.
On the other hand I've kept the closely related Teleocichla gephyrogramma, cinderella and sp. Xingu I, and they were all nice and only moderately aggressive fish, and if dwarf pikes are normally no worse than that, like it sounds they might be, I'd definitely like to try a group.

[apistomaster]

Hi Mike,

It does sound to me like your friend's experience with C. wallaceii was atypical for this species or else he had a different species.
C. compressiceps is the most attractive of the dwarf Crenichla to me but also the one with the worst problems for intraspecfic aggression. I think the most peaceful and smallest Dwarf Crenicichla species is C. notothalmus which I haven't been able to find yet.
I kept my dwarf Crenicichla spp in a 75 gal tank and never more than six specimens along with Heckel Discus and a variety of small Hypancistrus and some of the other Characins I listed above. C. compressiceps are the most attractive species, imo, but I don't know how others managed to breed them. I had both sexes but a compatible pair never formed and they just drove each other incessantly. One by one the most stressed compressiceps died.
I did not have this problem with wallacei and regani.
None of my males, the larger sex, ever grew to be more than 5 inches TL.
The Dwarf Pike Cichlids are very interesting cichlids and in many ways they acted like a jumbo sized Apistogramma with a major chip on their shoulder.

[nvcichlids]

Well as of right now, I would say they are not aggressive at all towards other fish, and do no harass anything. I would disagree with the compressiceps being the most beautiful, but once again, to each their own. As far as the noth's go, they are available currently on aquabid as F1's. If you want to give them a try, the guy is really easy to work with. From what I have read, they are the most aggressive of the dwarf species. I am keeping them in a heavily populated 33 gallon XL at that moment with no issues. The corydoras are all doing well, along with the other sp of cich lids in the tank. I have not noticed any of the soft bodied catfish in the tank taking damage either, and the plecos stay away from them (although my new L204's are very pushy fish lol.)

I will post pictures tonight of my females, who already have the red belly which is a sign of breeding, but I need to plump them up before allowing this to occur.

[apistomaster]

My favorite species as far as looks go is C. notothalmus but the compressiceps can be very pretty, especially compared to wallaceii but as you say, it is a mater of tastes. I would get some of those C. notothalmus if I had more room. I have a lot of Hypancistrus L333, Peckoltia L134 and a few broods of Hypancistrus L260 young spread about. I am raising about 30 each F1 L260 and F1 L134 as future breeders and as much as I like my catfish, I am first and foremost a Discus fanatic.
My latest Cichlid addition is a group of 10 F1 Mesonauta acora. Not one of the most commonly seen species in the genus.
I have been setting up 3 pairs of wild Blues and once the last pair gets removed from my 125 gal i will start Phase II of my wild Discus project by stocking the 125 with 8 wild Red Spotted Greens. I also raise Brilliant Turquoise because they are popular. I began breeding wild Discus in 1969 and had bred 4 wild pairs until several years later when I obtained my first commercially bred domestic Discus. I breed domestic Discus on autopilot and find them boring but worthwhile. The wild fish interest me far more. The problem with Discus is that there is no getting around all the space they require. I sold my 10 Heckels that I had grown up from 3 inches when I bought them 4+ years ago because the Heckels are close to impossible to breed. I needed their tank to house Discus I can breed.

I raised a lot of Sturisoma from some wild fish and the F1 adults breed so much I just ignore the fry. Been there and done it and found the fry to require more work than I am willing to provide continuously. I will raise another bunch before my present stock grows too old. I have Apistogramma borelli, gephyra, wilhelmi, triafasciata and hongsloi Rostriche. My colonies of Corydoras hastatus and C. habrosus take up 2-20L's. Someday i will try to raise Crenicichla notothalmus one of these days when I can find some space for them.
I'm looking for a new home for my 8 large Peruvian Scalares and there are 3 mated pairs among the 8 Angels. They are taking up a tank I need for Discus. These are the wild Discus I have now before I moved the pairs to their own spawning tanks. Hope to get the wild RSG Discus soon.

My only domestics, Brilliant Turquoise.

Brilliant Turquoise with fry.

[nvcichlids]

As promised, here are a few pics of the fish
New probible male LDA67

L204 #1

L204 #2

Female

Female with Corydoras

Female with the Pink Belly

L015(?) I bought it for 2.99 in a LDA67 Tank.


Will have tank photos tomorrow along with some updates with the bulging bellies of the females and some of the males.

[apistomaster]

It looks to me like you have Crenicichla notothalmus. The females typically have one or two red ringed black eye spot(s) on the posterior dorsal fin. The males lack the eye spot(s) but eventually develop long anterior extended first few rays similar to those on male Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. C. wallacei are not as pretty, lack the spots and are a larger species of dwarf Cichlids.

[racoll]

Nice Crenicichla. Hard to tell if it is C. regani or not. They are quite variable.

L015(?) I bought it for 2.99 in a LDA67 Tank.

The plec looks more like a

Panaque

of the L002/L169 group from here. Perhaps post some better pictures in a new thread?

[apistomaster]

C. regani are variable. The females have 1to 4 white ringed posterior occelli which sometimes overlap or run together.

[MatsP]

Nice Crenicichla. Hard to tell if it is C. regani or not. They are quite variable.

L015(?) I bought it for 2.99 in a LDA67 Tank.

The plec looks more like a

Panaque

of the L002/L169 group from here. Perhaps post some better pictures in a new thread?

Absolutely - it's certainly NOT

Peckoltia vittata

(L15).

--
Mats

[nvcichlids]

You caught me on that one. I don't know what I was thinking.. i knew it was a panaque. Looking over the pictures of the L002 and the L169.. I would say his coloring most resembles the

Panaque sp(l169)

juvenille. When he is out more, I will get more pics and snap away for a new thread thanks guys!