NEW WC L046 Zebra imperial pleco SALE!!!

[Unungy]

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Hi to all,

I'm here to bring to you the best Wild caught imperial zebras L46 out there at a very fair price from my new shipment.

4.5 - 5.0 cm -2" $140.00

5.5 - 6.0 cm 2"+ $160.00

6.0 - 7.0 cm 3" $180


- They have been quarantined for a total of 4 weeks.
- Shipping is airport to airport collect or fedex overnight at your cost
- Dont guarantee sex, but I will try to sex in your order
- They are acclimated to our waters 7.4 - 7.6 PH, Temp 80F
- Email me for more pictures or any questions that you may have
- Orders of 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 or any number HIT me up with you order
- DOA 100% covered
- 100% live arrival guaranteed
- Paypal and http://www.escrow.com
- They are eating well and looking for new homes.......
- I offer discounts, free shipping depending on your order, upgrades to other sizes for free

More sizes available Try me out! saul_paredes@hotmail.com

Regards,
Saul

[Unungy]

New shipment coming up...
Place your order...

email : saul_paredes@hotmail.com

I will give you 10% discount on your order if you belong to this forum or maybe free shipping depending on your order

Regards

Saul

[Aquariumfun]

Isn't export of de L46 illegal???

[MatsP]

Isn't export of de L46 illegal???

Yes, export from Brazil is restricted (meaning illegal unless you have permission from IBAMA, and that's pretty much only available if you are doing research).

Fish is however smuggled across the Brazilian border to Venezuela, Colombia and Peru, where the fish is exported to other countries. They are NOT on the IUCN red-list, so the trade once they are outside Brazil is not illegal (it is of course a bit questionable ethically, which is a moral rather than legal matter).

--
Mats

[Aquariumfun]

I think it's strange that this forum allows this sort of illegal practices.

[vldesign]

Yes it's very sad. These fish were obtained illegally and yet places like this do nothing to stop the smugglers by blocking these sales.

Perhaps places like this need to be held accountable.

[Dave Rinaldo]

I think it's strange that this forum allows this sort of illegal practices.

Here's an out take of Jools response from this thread

This site, considered one of the premier catfish sites on the web, has no policy/position on this issue as far as I can tell- this is obvious from this classified posted July 20, 09 http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 24&t=26940.

Thanks for the compliment. I seek to avoid creating a political position on this ethical matter. Firstly, the zebra pleco has no more right than the hunderds of other endangered catfishes to the sites attention.

No one has yet said the fishes range is from this part of the Xingu to this other part. No one has yet said how many fishes may exist in the wild and no one even knows how many were being exported then or now.

It isn't illegal to buy them freshly imported. I think your point is that it is ethically wrong - how much more, or less, ethicially wrong that buying a SA red tail cat? Or breeding veiltail or hybrid plecos? Or some other fish that is endangered or soon to be?

And what happens when they are bred in Brazil - how do we tell the imported F1s from the imported WCs?

This is mostly true for the other endangered species and indeed new information comes and goes all the time.

Is it OK for these species to be exported to go to expert fishkeepers like yourself who will breed and distribute them, but to take a position on selling them to "trophy fish" collectors to sit in a tank with 20 other l-numbers?

So, my present position is not to adopt a "nanny state" approach but rather to leave it to the individual. I do not have any problem with someone replying to a post selling newly WC zebras (or anything else) and asking how the seller feel about the ethics of it. It's hard to find how I ban something that is ethically unsound when there are many other similar cases. If the UK, for example, were to make their sale illegal, that would be a different matter.

On another pleco site this seller has feedback from some of the more respected members there thanking him for the great zebras- fish advertised in such a way as to make it clear they are recently caught and illegally exported.

I am reminded of a now famous line from the Pogo comic stip: "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us"

I'd agree if you mean us in terms of the human race, if you mean fish keepers or the industry then I can't agree with that.


Jools[/quote]

[Jon]

"I think it's strange that this forum allows this sort of illegal practices."

i think it's strange some guy with ten posts thinks he's the final authority on ichthyophilosophical ethics. go read a book or something.

planet catfish, despite what you might've heard, is not the internet police. There is also nothing illegal about selling these fishes straight from california.

Now, if you want to go cry some more, might I suggest:
http://www.kleenex.com/NA/Default.aspx


nothing to stop the smugglers by blocking these sales.

If you think a few people on planetcatfish.com boycotting this thing are going to stop imports, you need to...---uh...well, you're just ignorant.

Oh, and:

[dconnors]

Jon...I am lmao right now!

[Bas Pels]

Jon

I don't think Planet Catfish can stop this activities, but that does not mean PC has to support them - in my eyes.

Personally I'd rather see another policy regarding WC L46 - but I'm not the one who decides/ amon thos who decide.

[apistomaster]

I hope that these fish are bought by those who will breed them so we can increase the domestic supply of tank raised H. zebra.
It would go a long ways towards bringing down the prices of domestically produced Zebras within the next few years.

I have a personal problem with the keeping rare species as single specimen trophy fish, kept only as status symbols and cut off from making any contribution to the genetic diversity of the aquarium strains.

I don't think any of us are really well informed about the actual status nor full range of this species or many others.

We are still discovering isolated small populations of some trout subspecies thought to have gone extinct early in the 20th century in the USA. The Brazilian rain forest waters have many discoveries yet to be made. Who's to say that there aren't populations of fish so far known only from the Rio Xingu don't have similar reservoirs of isolated populations yet to be found? Or whether or not their exists enterprising entrepreneurs raising valuable popular ornamental tropical fish species presently unknown to us?
How would you be able to tell if a Hypancistrus zebra was caught from the Rio Xingu or from a hatchery in Brazil or elsewhere in Neotropical South America?

[Jon]

"Jon

I don't think Planet Catfish can stop this activities, but that does not mean PC has to support them - in my eyes.

Personally I'd rather see another policy regarding WC L46 - but I'm not the one who decides/ amon thos who decide."


It's a personal liberties issue. As we all know, it is not illegal to pass off these fish once they are outside of Brazil . To reprimand or censor him at this point is not the right thing to do. No one is "supporting" the seller, as it were--this forum is meant as public access. If he wants to conduct noninflammatory business here, that's his business. In fact, if I'm reading things correctly, the attitude here towards such exporters and sellers is overwhelmingly negative, so you don't really have to worry about that.

You don't have to agree with it, but if he abides by the forum rules as set forth my the admin squad during his time here, who are you to stop him?

[MatsP]

And all these posts really help the advertiser!

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

And all these posts really help the advertiser!

--
Mats

I think there is a lot of lip service about ethics but secretly, many want to get their hands on these fish.
I would have no qualms about buying as many as I could afford but I cant afford even 6 right now and would really like to have at least 12 of them. 8 AA grade wild Red Spotted Green Discus or Zebra plecos. Both will be around and both require a large commitment of time and effort to breed. I need the Discus more than the Zebras so my priorities have already been established. The Discus will be harder to breed and I have an almost empty 125 gal Discus tank at the ready.

[racoll]

While I think aquarists should respect IBAMA's descision in stopping export of these fishes for conservation reasons, I am realistic in that stopping for-sale posts here will not stop their illegal export.

And while I really don't like seeing these kind of posts, I think it is better that they are out in the open, so if for one thing, potential buyers can be informed of the moral and ethical questionability of purchasing endangered species as pets, and the amount of illegal export can be to some extent qualitatively monitored.

[apistomaster]

It's the endangered species as pets that bothers me most.
If they ended up in the hands of experienced breeders then the pool of breeders able to provide domestically bred fish in numbers high enough to drive down prices below the price of wild caught imports then the negative might be outweighed by the good in the future.

I have never seen any evidence either way that the fish in these numbers are really poached or bred in controlled conditions.
They seem so uniform in size, even accounting for careful sorting that makes me wonder whether or not they really are poached wild fish or bred under hatchery type conditions.

This particular case is not the first. In the past 18 months "wild" fish have made a strong showing in venues like aquabid and various dealers.

[dconnors]

I have looked on the USFWS website and I cannot find Zebra Pleco or Hypancistrus zebra listed anywhere as endangered...if anyone knows where I can find this info I would appreciate it.

[pleco_breeder]

It probably needs to be remembered that they are not "technically" endangered. They've never been placed on cites and even IBAMA doesn't claim them as endangered. The ban originally went into effect for population studies and has been in place since. The last I heard of the topic was that the numbers in the two reported locations showed only slight growth, not enough to consider significant, during the study and that is the reason that the ban remained in place.

Larry Vires

[Jools]

As I've said before, this is a personal, ethical, decision. My personal view is you are not acting the spirit of the law, irrespective of how many zebras are left in the wild, buying them for breeding etc etc etc. However you're not breaking the law and I will not have the site take an otherwise political stance on this - we all need to make our own calls.

I'm not buying any.

Jools

[racoll]

It probably needs to be remembered that they are not "technically" endangered. They've never been placed on cites and even IBAMA doesn't claim them as endangered.

I have looked on the USFWS website and I cannot find Zebra pl*co or Hypancistrus zebra listed anywhere as endangered

Yes, the term "endangered species" was mine rather than an official designation.

There are no published data on the conservation status of H. zebra; when the IBAMA studies are complete we will have a much better idea.

However, in the meantime I believe a cautious approach should be taken. If one looks at the IUCN Red List criteria, from anecdotal evidence, H. zebra fulfills many of the endangered and threatened categories, e.g...

1) Limited natural range - endemic to small part of a single river system
2) Limited reproductive capacity - not a fecund species
3) Significant drop in population size - anecdotal evidence from fishermen and huge price hikes, even prior to ban
4) Commercial exploitation combined with very high demand for illegally caught fishes
5) IBAMA having deemed the monitoring and trade restriction of this species a priority

Bear in mind that to be classified as "endangered", it only requires a ≥50% population reduction in the last ten years.

[apistomaster]

IBAMA must have had some reasons for restricting commercial exports of all Brazilian Hypancistrus spp in recent years like those racoll listed for the older restricted species, H. zebra. They don't all come from the Rio Xingu but all have been heavily exploited by the commercial Ornamental Tropical Fish business. There are proposals to build hydroelectric dams on nearly every river system which has Hypancistrus spp in it.

I have not bred L46, H.zebra but I know they are similar to the L260 I do breed. The L260 only spawn a few times a year and have small broods of about 12-16. It takes them a few years to reach sexual maturity. This is a very low replacement rate compared to other imported popular fish which are so prolific that their annual harvest has little to no effect on the health of the species' wild populations.
I would not be surprised if Peckoltia sp L134 isn't soon added to the IBAMA list of species banned for export. Importers have told me they are receiving fewer L134 than they order. It gives the appearance of rationing the available catch among the exporters' customers.

[Unungy]

Hi to all,

Thank you for those who have expressed, manipulated, shared believes and personal opinion, unique moral ethics with such elegancy and education and for those who didn't please refrain yourself for making commends without some eloquence and style.

1."This is a buy and sell thread" Perhaps with all the respect and consideration to those respected members in here, you should create your own thread and don't hijack somebody else only for those that have been attacking me "directly". It is a free country with a diverse of opinion, inclination and believes. if there is NOT a policy in place in PlanetCatFish one of the most respected sites then I'm not crossing any bridges, disrupting your in any way with my thread. Please refrain from making accusations directly to the seller in such a negative fashion, We also deserve respect and some degree of education by our members here YES I'm a rookie in the hobby with only very few threads.

2. I am new in the Hobby and for those who know me I have a cichlid's background "Frontosas". One day I was intrigued with the stunning beauty of the Hypancistrus zebra, "The famous" L46 so I started my search to acquire some of these beauties.

3. I am NOT the only one bringing them. WHY am I the only one being attacked? maybe it is because I pissed people off some sellers that provides them at much "HIGHER" prices? or Perhaps breeders? The truth is I DON"T know, I don't understand why other people go undetected by experts in the subject, and hard critics such as those in here.

This is one example, in the very front page. "http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 23&t=25320" I have nothing against the seller, a very distinctive and respected "honorable" member.

This is in the very front page, why nobody is attacking and trying to lecture him on moral or ethics behavior? perhaps because I'm NOT as well known as others sellers, but let me tell you something I'm honest and do business straight on the table as many others good sellers also practice, if there is a fish defective, or an unhappy customer. I'll get the fish back paying for shipping and losing money, sometimes at cost. Then I house them on my very special tank and they become part of my very own collection.

I don't sell fish as a living I'm a computer engineer, who happens to love this beautiful creatures so much that decided to make them available to others at a very fair price. My prices are very fair in all sizes, even adults, I don't try to sell only females at crazy prices.

4. These fish has been imported LEGALLY!!! I can provide all their paper work to anybody HERE. The fish and WILD life department inspects them before customer clearance every shipment. They Inspect my fish so I am NOT an smuggler? a criminal as such, they are exported legally of their country of origin.

If you don't want to buy it for whatever reason mentioned in this thread, that is fine and understandable and for those that don't agree with me selling them please respect other's people business and DO NOT participate in any way.

I ask you very politely to refrain yourself from any fault accusation made I have ALL the paper work to prove to anybody that this fish were imported LEGALLY. I appreciate those emails of well known members, customers, breeders for those words of encouragement thanking me for a great service.

Hopefully this email will help you to understand that YOU are not dealing with a criminal in any way.

Regards,
Saul

PS: If in the future you decide to purchase from me, I will take care of you and it will be my pleasure.

[racoll]

I am NOT the only one bringing them. WHY am I the only one being attacked?

I don't think it is anything personal to you Saul, or the way you do business. You just happened to post at a time when there is a lot more interest in wild Hypancistrus, more so than the post you linked to, which was made in February. Some posts get picked up on, others don't.

These fish has been imported LEGALLY!!!

Yes, but they have been exported ILLEGALLY.

please respect other's people business and DO NOT participate in any way.

Unfortunately this is a public forum and members are free participate as they wish, providing they adhere to the rules of the forum and conduct themselves in a non-inflammatory manner.

I think it is valuable to to present an alternative view. IBAMA are conservation management professionals, and I think we should respect their decision to prohibit export of these fishes as a precautionary measure until further population studies can be made.

I don't feel these efforts should be undermined. Members here should at least be aware of an alternative opinion, so they can make an informed decision.

Biodiversity is big business nowadays, and governments may not hesitate in cracking down on the fish trade in order to comply with international treaties and conventions. Therefore, the ornamental fish industry should be whiter than white if it wishes to continue to enjoy the export of interesting wild caught fishes.

Much of the general public find the international trade in wildlife abhorrent. The hobby as we know it may be hanging on a thread, at the mercy of a bureaucrats pen.

Some things are bigger than making a few quick bucks, or having a pretty fish for your tank.

[Jools]

Saul,

You're involved in something that a lot of people find morally wrong. This is an open, moderated forum, the same thought process that has stopped me from banning your posts selling this species is the same that prevents me from stopping anyone else politely debating the ethics of it or anything else.

The post is about selling this species, the ethics of that are debated here and that's fine with me.

Jools

[Jools]

This is one example, in the very front page. "http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 23&t=25320" I have nothing against the seller, a very distinctive and respected "honorable" member.

This underlines a misunderstanding of how the site works, all recently posted to posts are on the front and this changes all the time. The fact this post was on the front page was a timing thing.

This is in the very front page, why nobody is attacking and trying to lecture him on moral or ethics behavior? perhaps because I'm NOT as well known as others sellers

People are free to post where they want, I do not think that any reason that you list is valid at all as to why although you've now pointed it out. Maybe it's because you had pictures of lots and lots of them - I don't know. It's up to our members. I'm also of the view that I don't like the idea of "lecturing" - although I see scant evidence of it - but rather taking the point of ensuring everyone knows the facts around these fish.

they are exported legally of their country of origin.

No they're not, they are exported legally from their country of purchase. As has been pointed out, they are exported illegally from their country of origin.

If you don't want to buy it for whatever reason mentioned in this thread, that is fine and understandable and for those that don't agree with me selling them please respect other's people business and DO NOT participate in any way.

Sorry, but I have issued a warning on this point alone. You have no right whatsoever to strongly demand ("DO NOT") that people do not post. I will not have that, we have moderators for that job.

So, it's nothing personal at all, it's just that you appear to be selling fish that were illegally smuggled out of Brazil and I think that's worth talking about.

Jools

[vanillarum]

I have an opinion on this subject, but at the request of the OP, I will keep it to myself. MY issue, is this-do we really KNOW how these fish were obtained ? NO, we don't. Don't you think that unless we have ALL the facts, we should keep our condemnations to ourselves ? Jools wrote
"So, it's nothing personal at all, it's just that you appear to be selling fish that were illegally smuggled out of Brazil and I think that's worth talking about." The key word is "appear". Are we now making accusations based on appearances ? Yes, we are. Should we be ? Definitely not. I feel that if you don't have all the facts, and it's obvious no one does, and if it doesn't affect you, don't make accusations. My thoughts only. Have a nice day.

[MatsP]

I feel that if you don't have all the facts, and it's obvious no one does, and if it doesn't affect you, don't make accusations. My thoughts only.

However, we have some facts that mean that the OP is either lying about the fish being wild-caught or the fish were smuggled out of Brazil.
Fact:
Hypancistrus zebra are not WILD in any country other than Brazil.
Fact:
It is illegal to export H. zebra from Brazil. It has been for about 3 years.
Fact:
Fish that is over three years old, that have been kept in captivity from before the export ban would not be juveniles today.

Any wild-caught fish must therefore have come out of Brazil, and doing that is illegal.

So, the most kind with regards to the OP is that the OP has indeed legally obtained fish that was smuggled out of Brazil. All other options are implying that the OP is not actually telling the truth - which I think is a worse accusation than dealing with legally imported, illegally exported fish.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I started a new thread to discuss this topic in general terms and to discuss the need for us to do more species maintenance of those species of Brazilian Hypancistrus we have. There are very active breeding communities in Singapore/SE Asia, Europe and the USA. Each region has more of some species than others but among them all we have captive breeding projects which could be expanded to species maintenance programs. In time, perhaps we can exchange our captive bred species with each region and result in having a pretty large cross section of captive bred Brazilian Hypancistrus species become well established in the hobby. Isn't that what will benefit our hobby most in the long run?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =2&t=27300

[racoll]

do we really KNOW how these fish were obtained ? NO, we don't.

As Mats said, the seller clearly entitled the thread "NEW WC L046 Zebra imperial pleco SALE!!".

What part of "new wild caught zebra plecos" is ambiguous in regard to provenance?

The trader is selling them as freshly caught wild fish, so I make my comments based upon that statement. I have no reason to believe the seller's scenario is not correct; it is well known that H. zebra shipments are frequently illegally exported.

I question the validity of making up "what-if" stories to make ones observations fit ones opinion.

[Jools]

Are we now making accusations based on appearances ? Yes, we are.

Appear in this context means nothing less than it's definition. I was seeking confirmation on a factual point which I am still waiting on. As others have pointed out, that these fish were exported illegally from their point of origin does appear to be the only explanation, has not been refuted, and thus appears to be a fact.

I have been in a hotel room in Colombia when a local fish operative discussed bringing in smuggled

Hypancistrus zebra

from Brazil, he explained how it was done and that it was likely going to increase. That is a fact.

Jools