Peckoltia compta (L134) breeding setup

[Mongo]

Hi Marc

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Anyway I think it was me who sold you the fish.

You did ask advice, and I did tell you there was no need to medicate.

These are wild fish, and they have been in the shop for at least 2 months, and they are also feeding.

While different people may advocate different things, and if it works for them all well and good.

Larry states how he treats his fish, but can he say had on heart that some of the deaths he has are not attributable to the chemicals he has added,although it may save some fish that may have died.

I have over 100 wild caught hypancistrus and peckoltias, and never had to treat any. These have been bought from shops up and down the country and to my knowledge none have been treated, many of these are happily breeding.

IMO don't treat these fish unless they have symptoms, and the shops are unlikely to sell them if they are ill in any way.

All the best

Mongo

[MarcW]

Hi Mongo,

Thanks for your response, great after sales service! The reason I chose to medicate was they hadn't eaten for 3 days so I thought it may help, as it has done in the past for my L128's.

The good news is that the remaining fish is eating now, the only thing it definatly ate was courgette but at least its eating something! There is always something meatier in the tank too so hopefully it will move onto that soon.

Thanks again everyone for your help.

[MatsP]

Whilst I agree that "unnecessary medication is a bad thing", my feeling (and experience) is that the Kusuri Wormer Plus is very gentle on the fish, but works well against any parasites that the fish may carry. It is based on Flubendazole as far as I understand, and the other ingredient is a "bulk it up" calcium carbonate (so that an average human being can measure out the right amount).

I doubt very much that this medication is cause of problem. More likely is that the fish was stressed from transport and/or perhaps just unlucky. Having said that, I've bought lots of fish from Pier, and only once had problems (which was most likely my fault, as the newly arrived at Pier L183 went into fairly hard water).

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Mats

[Mongo]

Hi Mats

Whilst I agree that stress is a likely cause, travel and a change of water conditions. Addition of medication, no matter how mild, when there are no symptoms, surely, well IMO lead to further stress, as the water chemistry has changed.

All the best

Mongo

[MatsP]

When using this medication, you use one 0.3ml scoop per (if memory serves) 30 Imp. gallon. Flubendazole itself is a small part, and calcium carbonate is "general hardness". 0.3ml (0.5g) in 30gal = 500mg/135 liter = an increase in GH by 3 ppm. I doubt this will actually affect the fish, if the TDS is currently around 160 ppm.

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Mats

[MarcW]

If the remaining fish continues to eat well over the weekend I will look at picking a few more up on Monday.

I was thinking of getting 3 to make a total of 4 fish. What ratio should I aim for?

The two I had in mind were:

1M:3F
or
2M:2F

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

EDIT: I have just checked the pack of wormer plus it's contents are 50mg/g Flubendazole, the rest is just calcium carbonate I added 0.2 grams (2/3 of a scoop), the dose is 0.3 grams (one scoop) per 114 litres (30g), so my dose was for 76l in a ~85 litre tank. So hopefully it wouldn't have killed the fish.

[MatsP]

So you added 10mg of Flubendazole to the tank. And essentially 0.2g of Calcium carbonate. Neither should have any notable effect on the fish. I've treated several tanks with several different types of fish with this, and not seen any negative effects (not even dead snails, but that's probably because I don't care about the snails - if I had "pet" snails, they would most likely die!)

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I acquired most of my plecos 6 or 7 years ago from sources which had no qualms about shipping out fish which were in very poor condition. This was when many of the L-number plecos were much cheaper and I was just beginning to get interested in them.
Many of my original sources have gone out of business or are now known as places to avoid.
The current crop of dealers seems to be more interested in taking better care of their fish and their reputations.

Flubendazole has little toxicity to fish. It is not soluble in water. I do not know by what mechanisms it is able to enter a fishes internal organs.
It is effective against different flukes/worms than praziquantel which has effects on flukes/worms that are resistant to flubendazole.
I use the 10% powder in suspension at a dose of 1/2 teaspoon per 10 to 20 US gallons. The exact dosage is not very important since it does not dissolve into the water and it is difficult to harm your fish by using a higher dose. As an aside, it only takes a small pinch of this powder to eliminate Hydra which sometimes under go population explosions if a few are present and one begins to feed the fish in the tank a lot of Artemia nauplii. Hydra are plankton predators but can also eat very small fry like those of Tetras and Bettas while they are still very small.
I don't have all the particulars saved on this particular computer or I would have posted some more specific background information.

Metroniadazole is effective against parasitic protozoan flagellates commonly found in the guts of wild fish.

All wild fish in good health are in balance immunologically with their normal parasites and then they are of little threat.
It is when the fish are stressed after capture through over crowding and making their way through the fish trade distribution system that the fishes are stressed beyond their ability to cope. Most reputable importers and even some exporters begin treating fish for these various parasites so if they are well cared for, the end buyer often will not have any noticeable problems with parasites.
I use this combination of drugs on my new wild Discus and plecos so I know for sure the fish have been treated for the prevailing parasites to establish a base line of my own. Whether or not to treat before or after seeing symptoms is mostly a matter of one's opinions on this matter and what makes you feel better.

[MarcW]

Yesterday I picked up three more to add to the existing one which is still feeding well.

I would like some help determining their sexes. From what I was told by the lady in Pier the three new ones should be 1M and 2F, and I believe the existing one is a male. The reason I ask is that they all seem to have cheek odontodes although only one has clear odontodes on the tail section which is the original fish, I will put a pic up in the next post as I'm only allowed three per post.

I was told that the most reliable way of sexing is the head shape, any tips? If I remember rightly I was told that the males have a more rounded head than the females?

[MarcW]

Not a very helpful picture for determining sex, but this is the original fish which has odontodes all over the tail so from what I've read that makes it a male.

[MatsP]

I would agree that the two females look fatter, head is narrower (where it attaches to the body). So, I think, your fish are two females and one male. But they aren't the easiest to sex.

--
Mats

[MarcW]

Thanks Mats, that's good news. I have decided not to worm them this time as they are already eating (brineshrimp and worm tablets) and see how they get on.

I will keep everyone posted if there looks to be any breeding activity. On the subject, I have heard that lobster eggs can be good to condition smaller catfish for breeding, I've not seen these in stores before, the only one which should have had them had run out! Any opinions on them, and specifically to Mats, have you seen any locally?

[MatsP]

Never seen/looked for Lobester eggs, so can't say.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

My guess on the sexes is the same as MatsP but also as mats said, they are not always very easy to sex.

Maybe lobster eggs are fine but I would use them in moderation.
Because I keep Discus and have shared Leopard Frogs with Discus keeping friends, we have found that none of the Peckoltia and Hypancistrus should be allowed to eat a lot of beef heart blend. Things will go smoothly for quite awhile then one morning plecos start showing up dead with bloated bellies. I think raw meat is difficult for them to digest despite the fact they love it.

I have been using earth worm sticks as my meat eating plecos' staple food for 7 years. I supplement that with frozen blood worms, Tetra Color Granules and live black worms in decreasing amounts in the order listed. Spirulina sticks get fed to them a couple times a month. Use caution with new foods that are very rich.

[MarcW]

Thanks for the information Larry. They are currently eating brineshrimp (regular and garlic enriched), which I understand is far from rich/high in protein? They are also eating tablets which contain earthworm, crustaceans, and molluscs which are 47% protein.

I plan to try some bloodworm soon, and add an algae wafer (which contains fish meal) every so often.

[Richard B]

I find lobster eggs too small to feed in the frozen blocks they come in, as when they defrost a fine "smoke" of the eggs drifts through the tank & doesn't present a concetrated food source as they get sucked up by the filter (i suppose i could turn it off). I prefer to mix with other ingredients and feed as a more solid lump like blend lobster eggs with a whole shell-on prawn to make a paste, roll it into a ball or two or three and feed this to the tank - it sinks quick and is a good food all round. I don't know that lobster eggs have any conditioning benefit over other foods..?

[apistomaster]

Marc,
That sounds like a pretty good diet.
I think earth worm sticks are 42% protein. They contain shrimp meal and some Spirulina. Frozen brine shrimp lose a lot of nutrition because the ice crystals puncture the cell wall. Same thing happens with other frozen foods like blood worms but blood worms have a more substantial exoskeleton which is a source of calcium and helps to retain their inherent nutritive content compared to brine shrimp. Variety is always good so there is no reason not to use both these frozen foods.
I use fewer foods but enough variety to cover all the bases.

[MarcW]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I will continue feeding as I am and vary occasionally with a few other things. One food I did pick up recently that I thought seemed good is made by JMC Aquatics Limited called "Ingo Seidel's Special Diet for: Loricarias" it contains peas, salad(lettuce maybe?!), spinaich, carrots, soybeans, maize, shrimp, mussel, rotifer, cress, wolffia, sprinula. It states that it is around 4.5% protein so maybe a good food for omnivores which are more veg than meat eaters. It comes in frozen cubes and holds together well with an almost jelly consistancy when thawed.

When I brought the fish back, out of curiosity I checked the TDS of the water in the bags, my meter showed 960ppm! I was told they were kept in RO water which I guess could be anything depending on what is added to it, but this seemed very high to me. It was a good job I checked as my tank is around 160ppm so I took a while longer to aclimatise and dilute the water in the bags before adding to the tank. Any idea what could have caused that high TDS? The fish were in the bags for 4 hours could they have excreted that much waste? There was only one fish per bag, in around 1.5 litres of water.

Thanks for the help.

[MatsP]

I think Pier adds a fair bit of salt to the water. Many shops do. The salt raises the TDS much quicker than for example calcium carbonate (and TDS is based on an average mix of minerals).

--
Mats

[MarcW]

Hi Mats, thanks for that, I had read that salt was often the cause of high TDS readings from LFS water, but I'd not heard of that until today when I looked it up. Good to hear thats what they do rather than it being anything sinister.

[MatsP]

Good to hear thats what they do rather than it being anything sinister.

I would like to point that this is just my speculation - I haven't asked Pier about it. But it's the most logical conclusion, and I know for a fact that some other shops that I have talked to about this do add salt to their water to improve the fish health.

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Mats

[MarcW]

Sure, thanks Mats. I will go along with the salt theory, and if anything seems wrong with the fish I will give Pier a call to see if they can confirm or give another reason. Although fingers crossed they are active and doing well, I have seen at least one of the new arrivals eating within 24 hours too, which is a first for me with Loricariidae.

EDIT: I have just sat in front of the tank for 5 mins and in that time seen all of the fish eat! There does seem to be one boistrus male (the original one) who seems to have his territory marked out, once one of the others gets within a few inches of him they get chased away, nothing serious yet and it doesn't seem to be stopping any of them from eating.

[apistomaster]

Added salt is almost certainly why the bag water had such a high TDS,
Nitrite toxicity is somewhat diminished in the presence of salt.
I am not aware of salt having any ameliorative effects on the ammonium toxicity.
The usual drop of pH is due to a build up of CO2 + H2O -> carbonic acid which lowers the pH and ammonia/ammonium is less toxic when the pH drops below neutral(pH 7.0).

There are different schools of thought regarding acclimation procedure. Each has it merits.

I prefer to have the destination receiving tank pre-adjusted to be similar to the supplier's water chemistry and pour fish in to a small container and simply net them out and drop them into the receiving tank. I want my fish out of stagnant bag water ASAP.
I do allow water temperatures in the shipping bag to reach equilibrium with the receiving tank first.

Other people prefer using a slower mixing of their water before transferring their fish to their tank.

That 4.5% protein looks like a typo to me. Are you sure it isn't 45% protein?

[MarcW]

Hi Larry, thanks for the details regarding aclimatisation. My tank water is fairly similar to the tank they came from apart from the salt, if thats what was causing the TDS difference. I tend to put my new fish in a container with some of the bag water but not all, then drip from an airline until the water is about 10-20% bag to 80-90% tank then net or pick them out and put in the tank.

The 4.5% protein is what it states on the packet, however it also states 85.2% moisture, how much of that disappears when defrosted I don't know, but that could bump up the percentage of protein if water melts away from the cube.

Does anyone know if the difference (when aclimatising to a lower TDS) in TDS affects fish in different ways depending on if it's caused by added salt or hard water?

[MatsP]

So 85.2% moisture and 4.5% means that it's about 30% of the "not water" content that is protein. Sounds like a decent type of food.

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Mats

[apistomaster]

Assuming the salt was used only for shipping water it may be ignored.
Very large differences in TDS between what they are used to, to something extremely low can cause some degree of osmotic shock, especially to the cells that make up the gill tissues. I find that making a 50% reduction in the TDS is not excessive. In fact, that is exactly what I do just before I anticipate my L134 breeder to begin spawning. My city may be using water from anyone of it six deep wells. In past years my tap water had a TDS of about 450 ppm and I would make 50% RO water changes ever 3 or 4 days until I got readings around 40 ppm. Then I would try to maintain the TDS between 40 and 75 PPM. Last year they began using a different well so my tap water changed to about 240 ppm. I am just beginning the 50% RO water changes. These steps down seem to stimulate them more than stressing them. In general, fish seem to have even more tolerance for abrupt increases in the TDS. Other breeders may be more conservative than I and might recommend smaller single step decreases. I just know my method, using my water has never caused any problems.
Large changes in pH seem to be a greater stressor than the changes in TDS but pH is not a linear measurement.
Each whole unit of pH is 10 times more or 10 times less that the next highest or lowest whole unit.
Fortunately, one can make a large change like 50% RO water with relatively small changes in pH. For example: when I make a 50% RO change the water begins with a pH of 7.4 but afterwords it's pH only drops to about 7.0.
My target is actually about 6.2 to 6.4 but as I dilute it with successive RO water changes the pH gradually drifts downwards as the diluted water losses some of it's buffering capacity and I can achieve this without using any acids to gradually lower the pH. My tap water has both KH and GH(6*, 7*) which are nearly the same so simple RO water dilution of the tank water makes all parameters change gradually enough to not stress the fish. My final target for KH and GH is 3 to 4 degrees.
Once my L134 stop breeding I go back to using straight tap water.
My L333 breed freely in my tap water and are so productive the year around that I always have several hundred on hand.

[MatsP]

The water the fish are "shipped" (I'm fairly sure Marc picked up the fish himself) is from the tank where the fish are kept in the shop...

I have bougth several lots of fish from Pier Aquatics. I put the fish in a bucket and drip in water from the tank of their new home, until the water is similar to the tank water.

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Mats

[apistomaster]

I get almost all my fish from on line dealers from all over the USA.
My LFS doesn't even know what I am talking about when I mention what I raise and they are terrified of Discus.
I wish shops would not use salt unless a particular species needs it. Mollies, for example.

[MarcW]

I picked up the fish myself, and the water in the bags was taken directly from the tank which they were on display in.

(EDIT: Thats just how I aclimatised these and my other catfish Mats, I think the gradual change over 1-2 hours is less stress on them and it gives you a good chance to take pictures for sexing or ID purposes.)

The mix which you mention Larry is similar to what I use for the L134 tank, my tap water is very hard, a lot of the local area is chalk. My pH is 8-8.2 and TDS around 300ppm, I did do a GH/KH test a while back but can't remember the exact results, but it took over 20 drops of each solution before the colour turned indicating the measurement. So I use 50/50 Pure RO/tap water, this brings down the pH to around 7.6 and TDS to around 160ppm.

Thanks for the large RO change breeding trigger idea, once they have settled for a few months I will try that, as you probably only need about a cup of my tap water to 25 litres RO to bring the pH to 7 and TDS to about 50!!

I did see a male in a cave yesterday which I got excited about, although I have heard that many 'live in' or claim a cave regardless of intent to breed and go in and out for years before anything happens!

[apistomaster]

They do use caves to hang out in. Often for a very long time so don't make much of it but if you see two sharing a cave and one is scratched up you may have a surprise inside. I pretty much ignore what goes on inside of the caves. I like turning on the lights then one morning seeing a bunch of fry skittering for cover.
I received adult wild fish but they did not spawn until about 2-1/2 years later.
OTOH, last year I was able to get some of my 2 year old F1 females to spawn with wild males.
I had lost one of my original wild female breeders. She was hiding in a deep crack in a piece of wood I removed. I discovered her mummy a week later. My wild females and males are at least 7 years old now and their brood sizes range from 20 to 35. My young females produced small broods of 12 to 15. This year they are 3 years old so if they spawn they should be able to produce more fry. I am hoping to see my first F2 generations this year from my oldest F1 fish. They are 3 years old but haven't been set up in their own breeding tank yet. I have quite a few scattered among my Discus display tanks and one large group in a 40 gal breeder tank but they have no caves yet. At least yesterday I made the first 50% RO water change in my old breeding tank so I have begun taking steps to set things in motion.
I never take it for granted that my plecos will breed year after year save my L333's; they are almost like Bushy noses breeding year around and producing large broods.
I haven't used a colormetric titration test method for hardness or pH in years but isn't each drop about 17.5 ppm ~1* or is it one drop per degree of hardness? After using electronic test meters so long I have been out of touch. I know people generally pan the combination test dip sticks but I always found that fresh Mardel 5 in 1 test strips to agree rather well with my electronic meters so I use them as a crude cross check. I calibrate my pH meters with the pH 4.1 and pH 7.1 test solutions but I don't have any calibration solution for my EC/TDS meter. My RO water is about the best I have to check that meter. I do not use the 3rd stage mixed bed deionization cartridge. I figure if my membrane is removing ~97% of the TDS that is close enough for fish work. My RO water tests out around 9 to 12 ppm. Probably within the standard deviation for the meter I have been using for 5 years. I do change my meters' batteries every other year.
I don't think fish are so sensitive that 100% of the TDS must be removed unless your water contains measurable amounts of chlorinated hydrocarbons and the like. I ask for the annual comprehensive water test report from my water utility as a reference. Our water is from wells over 600 feet deep and that water is probably tens of thousands of years old.
Always test a sample of water with electronic meters away from any source of electromagnetic fields such as fluorescent aquarium lamps. They can cause spurious readings if you test directly in the tanks near the lights.