L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

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Yams
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L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by Yams »

Around 3 days ago, I noticed one of the 4 L134 plecos in my 20gallon-long tank was wiggling its tail constantly. I have read that this is breeding behaviour, but he was just sitting upside-down suctioned to the underside of a rock, rather than being inside an actual cave.

The next day, he was sitting at the entrance to one of the PVC pipes that I have in the tank for shelter, until I get proper-sized breeding caves for them. He was wiggling his tail all day long, nonstop, but what was different was that sitting outside of the pipe, in the curved part, was a 2nd pleco, who was also wiggling its tail.

Later that day, I was working on covering the filter intake and powerhead with a mesh screen. Bit of context: 2 weeks ago, I had introduced a school of tiny little harlequin rasboras to the tank (without quarantining...) and the morning after, I had discovered that 5 of them had perished after getting stuck inside the filter intake and the powerhead, and a 6th had made it through the filter and was inside the filter itself, very much alive. Saved him, and immediately got some fabric to cover up the filter intake and powerhead so that the remaining fish would never get caught inside. Only early this week had I realized that the holes in the fabric were much too fine, and it was severely impeding water flow in the tank. The powerhead was not pushing much water through, and the filter was not sucking up much either. So, essentially, all water movement and filtration systems were running at only a fraction of their efficiency, for at least 7 days. After discovering this, I went on the hunt for a suitable sized mesh screen: one that had holes large enough that it would not impede water flow, but small enough that the tiny rasboras could not possibly fit through. So, fast forward back to 2 days ago, and after pointing a desk light at the powerhead so I could see what I was doing while attaching the screen, I noticed in the light that the original tail-wiggling pleco looked a little unusual: he seemed to have spots on him, that were either just odontodes in the light, or white spots from the dreaded ich, which I have never experienced before, so I don't know whether it's that.

As soon as I saw that, I took a picture and posted it on another forum. A member asked if I had considered that it could be velvet, rather than ich, which I hadn't even thought of.

Last night, before turning the lights off in the room, and after I had dropped pellets into the tank, I noticed that all 4 of the plecos were out and about, which was unusual for when the lights were on. Normally, they sit in their usual places, only somewhat visible, and sometimes reposition themselves, but otherwise do not stray from their locations until after all the lights are off in the room. One of them was in his usual spot, but was wiggling around a bit more in view, and the other 3 were just roaming around. One of those 3 is one that had damaged pectoral and pelvic fins when I received him/her, which allows me to identify it easily. That one was darting around the entire tank, swimming from one side of the tank to the other, then going halfway up the side glass and suctioning to it for a moment, then going right back to darting around. Highly unusual, unless it had gotten spooked by something, but I have no idea what it would've been. They were also starting to do this thing where they wag their tails back and forth like a happy dog. All 4 of them this time.

This morning the damaged-fin pleco was moving from hiding spot to hiding spot, but not erratically this time. All 4 plecos were, and still are, wagging their tails constantly. I took a good look at the damaged-fin pleco, and to my horror, it looked as if it were covered in tiny ich-like spots. The pleco who was the first to wiggle his tail and also was the one who had signs of ich still looks the exact same, no better, no worse. His doesn't look very bad, and I'm not very concerned about him. The other two plecos look normal, aside from tail wagging, and the rasboras are behaving normally with zero signs of ich, velvet, or other illness.

I did a 40% water change an hour or two ago, and plan on doing the same thing tomorrow. Around 20 minutes after the water change, I took two pictures of the pleco with damaged fins and possible ich. These two pictures are the same fish:
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Image

The tank is 20 gallons, 30x12x12", heated to a constant 80F, equipped with a Koralia Nano powerhead pump and Aquaclear power filter. pH of 7.2, same as it comes out of the tap, GH/KH unknown as I have never tested for it. Not sure where my water testing kit is right now, but last time I tested this tank, which wasn't too long ago, the ammonia was 0, nitrite 0, nitrate around 20. 30% water changes done every 10 days or so, but I hope to stick to a weekly routine. Tank has no substrate or plants, and contains the 4 L134 plecos and a school of 15 tiny rasboras, which are all fed Tropical-brand discus pellets every night, and OmegaOne freshwater flakes in the morning for the rasboras specifically. The plecos have been in the tank for around 4 months, but the rasboras were only added 2 weeks ago and unfortunately were not quarantined (I did get them from a quality LFS who I trust, but of course that doesn't mean they are always 100% disease-free...). No medication has entered the tank in its entire existence.

I think that's all the info I've got. I'm hoping you guys can help me out here. The only disease I have experienced was bloated Tropheus (african cichlid), which was quite a bit different, so I don't know what to do here, plus the fact that this is the first time I have ever kept plecos, though I have done lots of research. Thanks for your time.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by Jobro »

Looks like Ich to me. Please treat really fast. It is a serious disease that can kill plecos. Sadly I can not give advice on the meds that are available in the US.

I hope someone will shine in and offer some advice on what meds to take.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by bekateen »

I'd stir the gravel, do a big water change (70-80%), remove any live plants, raise the heater to at least 88F and add lots of air with an airstone, then get some medicine.

There are several US brands of ich meds and also some brands for "ectoparasites" which may work too, like Seachem Paraguard and ProForm C.

Good luck.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by Yams »

Thanks for the replies. Currently, the temperature in their tank is raised to 86F (was previously 80F), which I did last night after posting. There is no gravel to stir or live plants to remove; the tank is functional but not aesthetically pleasing, haha. I did a 40% water change yesterday and am doing the same thing later today...or should I do a bigger one, like 70-80%, today in one go?

My plan was to keep the temperature at 86F for 2 weeks, and soak fish food in garlic juice 2-3 times a week to help boost the fish's immune systems, while keeping up on water changes and oxygenation. Also, no salt added. This is from a guide on another forum which claims the author has a 100% survival rate with that method (using zero medication was also part of the guide, but recommended medication if the situation was dire. Gonna be using meds I think, though.)

Lastly, the only store that carries aquarium products within a 1-hour radius is a Petsmart. Looking at their online store, for treating ich, they only carry "Marineland Ich Remedy" and "API Liquid Super Ick Cure". I would imagine I would have better luck with an API product. What do you guys think? Is this "Liquid Super Ick Cure" a good product to use for these plecos?

Thanks again.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by bekateen »

For what it's worth, I keep my P. compta at 85F every day, so if you really want to jack up the heat to fight the ich, go a little higher than 86F.

If you have no sand or gravel, you probably don't need more than a 50% WC. I do the 70-80% changes when I am stirring up gravel to get rid of particulate matter that settled in the substrate, or for disease to get rid of dormant stages of the parasite life cycle which can hide from the medication in the sand.

Personally, I haven't used either of those meds, but I agree in principle that I'd probably choose the API med first, unless someone tells me that its formulation is unsafe for the plecos.

Good luck, Eric
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by TwoTankAmin »

As far as I know the most effective ich meds are still ones which use a combination of formalin and malachite green. I use https://fritzaquatics.com/product/quick-cure/

I have only had to treat ich twice in 18 years. Both timea it came in on with new fish.

If you are really curious, here is a paper on a whole lot of different ich treatments and how effective they are against various stages of ich. http://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893 ... review.pdf
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by racoll »

I'd say the majority of suspected ich cases in plecos are actually velvet.

Ich is characterised by large, sparse, regularly round white spots.

Velvet is generally a dense covering of irregularly sized small yellowy blobs.

Ich
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Velvet
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by racoll »

Be sure to act fast. It's lethal in very sort space of time.

Slowly raise the temp up to 35C over about 12 hours, add massive amounts of aeration, dose with malachite green / formalin medication, and remove all driftwood (organic material deactivates the meds).

Every day do an 80% water change and redose the meds. Don't feed.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by Yams »

Thanks again for the replies. Today, the heater has been set to 87F. I'm hesitant to raise it even higher because there are also some harlequin rasboras in the tank and I don't know how much warmer they can go. I did pick that species of fish partially because they would be able to thrive in the warmer temperatures that the plecos like, but I'd imagine 88F+ would be pushing it. Then again, it would only be for a week or two.

Also, I'm having trouble finding an ingredients list for API Super Ick Cure, but apparently it contains malachite green. I'm under the impression that using this product will be beneficial, even if it's velvet and not ich, unless someone comes along and tells me otherwise, so tomorrow I'll be looking for an opportunity to go grab a bottle of it and hope things work out.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by racoll »

Velvet can be treated with malachite green, formalin, copper sulphate, or acriflavine. Not sure which is best, but bear in mind that formalin will wipe out your biological filter, and copper sulphate can be very toxic at low KH.

Seachem Cupramine looks like a good option though for velvet if you can find it. It's apparently safer than regular copper sulphate, and can be removed after 14 days with carbon.

Also, keep that tank in complete darkness. Velvet is photosynthetic, so preventing that will help.

Good luck.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by bekateen »

Velvet is photosynthetic?!? I had no idea! I'll keep that in mind if I suspect velvet on fish in the future. Thanks, Racoll.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by Yams »

Well... one pleco is down. I checked the tank around noon, all 4 alive, though covered in spots and seeming to have trouble sitting still. Left to go to the nearby petsmart to grab some of the super ick cure, came home about 2 hours later, about to put in the first dose of the med, and find one of the plecos not moving or breathing. Definitely freshly dead. Poor fish...wish I had a quarantine tank right about now. Actually, wish I had one 2 weeks ago when I added those rasboras.

Looking up, though, because the other 3 at least are active, and I have dosed the meds (after taking the carbon out of the filter) and covered the tank with a sheet to keep it dark inside.
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by bekateen »

Sorry to hear that. Keep in mind that even if you try all the right treatments, you may still lose fish. Sometimes the fish are so weak from the disease that even the medication itself can kill the fish.

It can be heartbreaking to watch them get sicker. I hope you have better luck.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I was surfing for info on "Oodinium pillularis and loricariidae," and happened upon this excerpt from the Catfish Atlas: Vol 1 By Ingo and Hans. Even though it is 13+ years old, it is still an interesting read:

https://books.google.com/books?id=iAiNa ... ae&f=false
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Re: L134: Possible Ich/velvet, tail wagging on every pleco?

Post by smitty »

When I had a bad otbreak of Ich with my plecos. I kept them temp at 89-90, and added salt. I did not lose any, and maybe there was some luck associated with that. Bekateen mentioned about getting the temp up and that was spot on advice.
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