I'm Going In- Fry Catching

[TwoTankAmin]

I purchased ten L236 about 1.75 inch TL from Eric B. about the end of June/early July 2012. I put them into a 33 gal. long to grow and basically forgot about them. In Oct. 2013 I began an odyssey of surgeries and eye issues that took about a year out of my ability to care for fish properly. During this year the 236 began to spawn but I lost most of them from lack of proper care. All of the medical issues are now behind me for some time.

Fast forward to the present and this group has had a duo of males spawning regularly for many months now. Similar to my zebra colony way beck when, they have been producing a new spawn about every 2 weeks. As more and more fry accumulated in the tank I began adding more wood, rock and slate formations to provide cover. At this point in time there are now so may fry in the tank that I usually spot a few out on the wood or rock work. The time has come to remove a lot of the offspring to growout tanks.

Here is the problem. Right now the two males are both on spawns- one on eggs and the other on wigglers approaching free swimming. So my challenge is how to get out a bunch of the offspring which requires completely disassembling the tank to catch them. The only thing in my favor is the two spawning caves in use are both located in the right half of the tank.

Note the two squashed caves on the right side, you can see a tail hanging out of one (on the wigglers). My challenge is to remove everything from the left of the Poret foam to nab the offspring on that side while not disturbing anything on the right half and not allowing any fish on the left to escape to the right.

Here is the plan. I have a sheet of 2 inch 20 ppi Poret foam that will be going into another tank as a Matten filter. My plan is to remove the cube filter in the center of the tank and enough of the decor at the front of the tank so I can force that Poret sheet into the middle of the tank to create a wall. To complicate things, this sheet is a bit too tall for the tank as it has a sand substrate about an inch or so deep. The idea is not to disturb the right half of the tank which can lead to losing the spawns. What the pictures do not show well is how much slate and rock work is involved, Taking it out is always pretty easy, but putting it back in some semblance of the same configuration always drives me nuts.

I will try to take pictures of this adventure, but as you can see from the snapshot above, I am a better fish keeper by far than I am a photographer. So I can make no promises.

[Thomas]

I don't understand the problem.
Remove both caves in a little seperate tank.
If you have 2 spawns every two weeks it is not insurmountable if you lose some wigglers ?
Take some pictures, remove the offspring and put back in the whole stuff.
Or is my look too simplistic ?

[TwoTankAmin]

I learned my lesson re pulling caves with spawns and dads in them with my zebra group. At the peak I had 3 spawns at once- eggs, recent wigglers and almost free swimmers. I had to pull fish from the tank as they were sold and being picked up. I moved each cave w/fry and dad to a separate trap. I did all I had to, everything looked great and I returned the caves where they belonged. The next morning the eggs and new wigglers were gone. That was $2,500+ lost assuming they had all made it to selling size. Price L236 and you will understand why I was not going to risk this.

I am now most of the way through the process. I have three sets of fry pulled. There are 12 small fry- one has a the last bit of a yolk sac showing. It should be all gone in the next day maybe two. I have another dozen in a second trap at an inch size and then the final five in the third trap are sellable size, i.e. 1.25+ - almost 1.5 inches TL. I snapped a bunch of pictures, but they are still in the camera. I will post them, if they are usable, in my next entry in this thread

I now need to pull apart the 20 long grow tank and move most of the fish now in it to the 33 long for growing bigger fish and holding those at sellable size. I have no way to know what percent of the total fry I managed to nab. There were 5 of the adult breeders in that half of the tank, one which would not vacate the cave it was in and one of the adult females is full of eggs.

If the breakdown was somewhat even between the two halves of the tank, that would indicate there were over 50 fry at the start. I already have about a dozen assorted 236 already in one of the two grow tanks involved.

[Fish_science]

How much are the L236 selling for these days? I breed the L046's successfully thanks in part to your postings of the "Zebra Pleco Saga" (I believe it was called) which you posted many years ago. I followed it for quite some time picking up much data along the way. Thank you for posting your experiences!

[TwoTankAmin]

The 236 sell for as much or more than zebras. Thanks F_s. I am glad it was helpful to you. That site has since gone out of existenc. However, a copy of the thread still exists at plecoworld.org. Incidentally, I still have 9 of the original 13 zebras in that tank plus a wild replacement pair. The most recent spawn in that tank was at the end of last year. Some of those fish are now in the range of 13 - 14 years old.

I woke up this morning at about 5:30 and decided to check the three fry traps. The air powered systems that move water from the tanks through the trap relied on a 3-way air valve that was new and not very good. In hooking everything up the air lines had slipped off a few times. So with my trusty flashlight I checked each trap and in the first two all was fine. But when I got to the 3rd trap holding the 12 smallest fry, they were gone. Initially, I had put the fry into a dip-and-pour because the hang on traps take up space hanging on the front of the tank.

The water flows back into the tank out a small overflow. That overflow has an insert which prevents fish from getting out. When I had set up the final trap for the small fry, I forgot to put that mini-grate in place in the output. The result was all of the fry had been able to swim out of the trap and back into the tank. *sigh* Fortunately the other 16 fish were in traps where I had done things right.

Today's part of the project is to take apart the 20L grow tank and move big enough fish into the bigger grow tank to make space for the newer inhabitants. Lack of proper space has been a problem for my fish keeping for many years now. I have tanks in two different buildings and 4 different rooms. the fry here are not only changing tanks but buildings as well. One side effect of this is in the winter when I move fish from one building to the other in a dip-and-pour, sometimes there is snow on the ground. Not many tropical fish can say they have seen snow

I took a lot of pictures, they are still in the camera. Once I can edit them I will post them here.

[Thomas]

Ow I didn't know you're point of view is business. That explains why you changed to L236 ...
For me it's just a hobby.

Thomas

[TwoTankAmin]

Thomas - No, my focus is not now, nor has it ever been, business. But this hobby is not cheap. Basically, I am able to cover my hobby costs by selling the offspring. To pay for the 236 fish now spawning, I sold zebra offspring and then added more cash. I have never been a high priced seller and I doubt you will find others who put an extra zebra in the bag when one buys 8. I also donate some of my sales proceeds (or fish) to a variety of fish sites/organizations which do good things for fish keepers.

I do not have a web site, I do not sell fish at auction (except for those donated). I take the same care of and get the same amount of joy from spawning plecos that sell for $20 as those that sell for over $100.

I have been doing this now for a number of years. People from all over the country have fish spawned in my tanks. I do not think you can find anybody who has ever dealt with me in this respect who has ever had an issue or who felt they did not get a good deal and reasonable treatment.

The fact is I am very much into the B&W striped Hypans. If I had more space for tanks, I would have more of them.

[carkichi]

Wow, thanks for the post. I also got some L236 from Eric B. about a year ago....No babies yet. What is your water parameter? Can you put a link of your Zebra post on this thread?

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is the zebra thread http://www.plecoworld.org/modules.php?n ... light=saga Bear in mind this is a copy, so it is not in its original form and some pictures may be missing.

My water is pH 7.0-7.1, TDS is 83 ppm but can drop into the high 50s when there is lots of rain. GH is about 5 dg and Kh about 4 dg. We have our own well and I have often told people I think the water from it contains a natural fish aphrodesiac since many of my fish spawn despite me.

[carkichi]

Thanks, much appreciated

[Fish_science]

I think it was named "Pleco Fanatics" if I remember right. I used to follow the forums religiously back then. I was transitioning from keeping cichlids to pleco's. I wanted Zebra's in the worst way. I ended up buying some from a guy named Bruce in Ashland, Wisconsin for Thousands of dollars. He was an odd fellow that I made a few deals with. I did not quarantine back then and lost most of my fish room full of fish after brining back some L333's I loaned him. None the less I kept on with the hobby. Bought more fish and am a little wiser for those experiences now I hope.

[TwoTankAmin]

Actually it was fishaholics.org, an excellent site. Pleco fanatics was one of the few sites I was happy to see close down. When it closed it was badly run, the owner had walked away, and the site staff had degenerated to mostly name calling and vindictive behaviors. Several other sites opened as a result of which plecoworld.org was one.

[Narwhal72]

Good luck on fishing out the L236. I think your idea is very good at preventing trauma to the males.

I missed out on getting those L236 from Eric B. back then. Wish I had. I only have one H. zebra now but am slowly starting to acquire more as funds allow.

Andy

[Fish_science]

Was fishaholics.org run by barbie? I do remember the scatter at the end of plecofanatics with new sites popping up to take it's place. Even so I did get some good data off that site. I believe you can learn something from everyone. I tend to be more of the lurker than poster as is evident by my number of posts vs. time registered with the site. There is such a wealth of knowledge available.

[TwoTankAmin]

As promised, here are a series of pictures from the start to the end of the whole process. Click on pics to see full size.

Step 1- I had to put in the poret foam sheet to divide the tanks and set up w of the recurculating marins traps on the front of the right half of the tank- but first here is what each 1/2 of the tank looked like before the foam went in.

Left half

Right half

And then it was divided and traps hung

Slowly the wood and rock work was removed and fish became visible

And more fish appear

And even more


See next post for more pics

[TwoTankAmin]

And then all the decor was out save a single cave with a male that would not let go no matter what I tried:

Here are a series of shots of the fish before I began removing them-
Cornered fish

Two clearly egg filled females

Same two females but you can see the larger one's tube out

Here she is enlarged

Continued in next post

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is one on the divider foam

Here are the fish pulled. The five biggest, the 11 medium sized and then fry in a breeder box (these escaped their trap overnight and are back in the tank (unfortunately one tiny fry did not make it. (Not all the fish were all in the various traps when I took the pics.)

Then it was time to move the fry to their new growout tanks. See the next post.

[TwoTankAmin]

To make room for the new inhabitants I had to remove most of the fish in the 20L grow tank to the next level grow tank. Here is what I found (A ruler was placed below the dip-and-pour for sizing help)

Here is the smaller growout tank into which the 11 medium sized fry ended up, you can see the portable ro/di unit and some bottles of stored ro/di water under the tank.

And here is the larger growout tank in which fish from the smaller grow tank and the 5 largest 236 ended up

I hope folks have enjoyed this photo record and have forgiven my poor camera skills.

[Narwhal72]

How do you keep the tanks so clean? Do you not run the lights?

Thanks for sharing and they are certainly beautiful fish.

Andy

[TwoTankAmin]

I do not run lights on pleco tanks except when working in them. However, the small tank was cleaned when I took out the fish to move them to make room for the new ones. The bigger tank was cleaned a few days ago. You should see them right before I do the weekly maint. on them.

And ty for the compliment, I will pass it on to the fish

For those who may not have noticed, both of the growout tanks run Matten filters. They do help to keep the tanks cleans and they are much less work as well.

[Narwhal72]

I also run Mattenfilters but I find that my tanks get really silty. Probably because I have a lot of Panaque that make sawdust all day long from driftwood.

When I pull the mattenfilters out to clean them there can be a solid wall of brown muck behind them that you can scoop out with your hand.

[TwoTankAmin]

Just a quick follow-up having done the weekly maint. on this tank today. One male was advertising having release its fry and the other was on the largest batch of eggs I have seen so far. I am thinking that big fat female is not so fat any more. And there were fry darting all over the place. I can see having to repeat this exercise in about 6 weeks or so.

[carkichi]

Wow, U Da man....

[TwoTankAmin]

I wanted to update this thread and what is up in the tank. Yesterday I broke down the entire tanks to pull more fry. Both males were in their caves and for sure one was on eggs. This time I had no choice. I divided the tank as I did in the above details. Only this time I repeated the process for the side w/o the spawning males after putting that the first half back together, I went to work on the other half. This time I removed the males in their caves to a hang on the front fry trap similar to those pictured above. Then the decor was remove and offspring removed. Anything 3/4 inch or smaller was left in the tank- this totaled about 20 fry.

The end result was the removal of another 35-40 fry that ranged from an inch+ up to a few at 1.75 inch. A few at 1.25 inch will be sold as well as many of those larger. I have a few at 1.75 -2 inches in the larger grow tank which I may decide to keep for myself. it appears as if there was a third female with eggs in addition to the two pictured above.

Years back when I started with zebras I had a situation where two males spawned for months on end for several years taking a break about every 7.5 months which lasted about 4.5 months and they would resume spawning. The two 236 males have yet to take a real break and have been spawning for longer.

I am hot on the trail of some L173. If I am lucky enough to get them I will need some patience as they are F1 fry at about 1.25 inches. If all goes well I expect to be getting about 15 of them.

This must be the season for plecos here because the L450 are spawning as are the H. contradens and I even got a spawn out of the L173b. About the only thing not spawning is the original group of zebras, but at this point they are pretty old. I estimate they range in age from about 8+ years to as old as 13+. I think they have just slowed down due to age. i have always found its the younger adults that spawn like crazy for a few years and then they start to taper off. However, they will occasionally give me a spawn.

[Orinocensis1]

I wish I could get my groups going like you! just tried a dry and rainy season on a wild group of L046 and L262 and got nothing.. For some reason, I only have good success with spawns in November-January, not sure why.. I will have to test the tap water to see whats so different about it. Great work!!

[TwoTankAmin]

I have been incredibly lucky in terms of fish spawning in my tanks. For one, my well water seems to be very much to the liking of SA fish and any others which can do well in similar parameters. I have a long list (for a small timer like me) if fish that have given anything from eggs to surving fry over the years. This list has more non-plecs than plecs on it.

However, I have come to believe a few general things based on observing my tanks over the years.

-Fish will only spawn when they want to unless one uses hormones. When they want to we have to work to stop them.
-They will be more likely to do so when fed a proper varied diet. Protein is usually a big factor, even for mostly vegetarian fish.
-Those who spawn under special conditions may or may not respond to them as hoped.
-My fish have been most prolific in the first few years of their spawning and then they slow down.
-We can only try our best, but they have to be ready and willing or nothing we do will matter.
-Groups tend to do better than duos. Only fish which pair need to be kept as such. Using groups is my personal preference.

Not sure any of this will help as it is anecdotal not scientific.

[bekateen]

... I have come to believe a few general things based on observing my tanks over the years....
-My fish have been most prolific in the first few years of their spawning and then they slow down.

Just like humans! (Most of them anyway)

[Orinocensis1]

Awesome info! What are you well water parameters? My well water at my new house has a higher TDS then I would like it's around 142 ppm. City water at the house is around 91 ppm.

[TwoTankAmin]

When I began in 2001 the tap was pH 7.4 and the TDS were about 110 ppm. Over the years these two numbers have come down. now I get about 83 ppm and almost dead neutral pH- its a tad above. When we get a few days of decent rains I have seen the TDS drop to a bit under 60 ppm.

But here is a list of fish that gave me fry: LF rosy barb through F3 in my tanks over the years. Zebra, chopra and roseus danios; furcatus and threadfin rainbows; DD Black Angels; panda and sterbai cory; Farlowella vitatta, H. zebra and contradens, L450, L236, L173b and P compta; A. Australe, assorted common tank BN varieties, P. nicholsi, Betta imbellis; 2 strains of X. montezumae.

Fish from which I got spawns but not fry: Discus, paleatus and similis cory, Rineloricaria parva.

I like to tell people that my water contains a natural fish aphrodisiac because I have no special skills in this respect.

[Orinocensis1]

Very nice list! Great work!
That's a good observation about the TDS of the well water. Wonder if the TDS is high because we haven't got much rain this summer at all. I will have to monitor that.

I got a big list of plecos and I want to try to spawn all the groups I have so it should be interesting. Currently I have adult L025, L046, L129, L174, L201, L260, L262, L270, L273 all ready to breed. I obviously will have to really concentrate on the pseuda groups I have to get any activity from them. I have the following growing out right now in the range of 2.5-3" L236, L333 yellow black, L333 gurupa. I have around 15 L046 fry left around 1-1.25" now that I'm thinking of saving for a future breeding group.

Gonna have my hands full for a while because I keep more then just plecos, I have a lot of corydoras and scleromystax I'm currently spawning and discus and angelfish as well. Gonna have my whole fishroom moved to my other house by next spring so I'm gonna work with what I can for now. Keep up the good work, I hope I can be as successful as you one day!

Joe