panaque nigro spawning ??

[rob rensen]

This evening I saw something unique..the male and female seem to like each other very much. I have never seen this behaviour before

[rob rensen]

Probaly I'm the only one who realise these are unique images ????

[Firestorming]

Don't get too stressed mate, remember this is an international forum and folks work too, that means that not everyone will see your posts in a time frame that may seem reasonable to you for comment. For me personally I can not load you tube at work, so I have to wait another few hours until I get home to check it out.

Cheers.

[Barbie]

You do realize these fish are cave spawners, right? This looks more like territorial sparring to me, but to be honest, there's not a lot of info there to reach a conclusion. They look pretty and well fed, if that's any consolation .

Barbie

[ElTofi]

I think it's not a pre-spawning behaviour... and you know why ? just because My Panaques are not ready to spawn (too young)... and as I planned to be the first to breed them, yours just cannot be ready to spawn

What Sherlock usualy says ? Elementary, isn't it, Watson ?

Just kidding, promised...

they look pretty healthy... and surely have a decent size to breed... I'll check the vids again, but it didn't seem to me they were so mature. I mean, I haven't seen any obvious external secondary signs like really big odontodes or so... the 2nd vid is cool about this very subject but it's not real "mature" odontodes, from my point of view : not long and thick enough... Any visible genital papilla on the supposed female ?

Do you have caves or big roots to provide them breeding caves ? In my tanks, I'd take out the others bottom inhabitants, to leave everything safe for the panaques...

[rob rensen]

One is definataly a male and the other one female...and sorry for the impantience, I was very excited

male



female

[ElTofi]

Did you take them out for shooting today ? if yes, it's a bit rough, especially if you think you have a pre-spawning behaviour, isn't it ? I hope I'm wrong and that these pictures are older...

But talking about pictures, do you have any of genital papillas of your specimen ? That could really help to sex them clearly, especially with sub-adult to mature specimen like yours...

anyway, I'm following it with the biggest interest...

PS : be very careful, when holding your fishes like that, not to crush them... they are very sensible on the belly, when you squeeze them with fingers from above... I'm maybe too sweet with mine, but I prefer to handle them flat on my hand, locking a pectoral fin between my fingers (hidden behind the fish, on my pictures)

[rob rensen]

Those pics are indeed older...I'll try to make some pictures when they're against the front window

[ElTofi]

glad to know... thanks for sharing...

2 pictures to illustrate a method of handling :





Note my fingers never squeeze the fish on soft parts...

[Jools]

I'm not saying they don't, but how do we know these fishes are cave spawners? Maybe they could be pipe spawners or something we've not really seen yet. It would seem to me that they are more likely to spawn at wood rather than stone sites?

Anyone seen one roe up in captivity?

Jools

[rob rensen]

Yes Jools...you're right. Who says they are cave spawners.....I hope they want to spawn in my tank with a lot of wood and waste. Tiem will tell

Thanks for sharing Etoffi....often I lay them on my hand but sometimes it's not ppossible. But thx for the pics

[Scleropages]

It would seem to me that they are more likely to spawn at wood rather than stone sites?

Anyone seen one roe up in captivity?

I was thinking the same thing, given their preference for wood. I'll ask around and see if anyone I know has seen them lay eggs.

Rob, they do seem to like each other. At that size, sparring behavior among royal panaque is usually quite a bit more vicious than what I see in your videos. Yours seem to be quite tolerant of each other in the small space of time I've seen them. As you (and Jimmy Cliff once) said, "time will tell."

[rob rensen]

I have a lot of panaque's. I know they can behave very bully. But this was different.....indeed; they seem to like each other

[rob rensen]

[Acanthicus]

Hi,

I think Panaque are wood spawners. The adults don´t live in caves, like we know it from Hypancistrus, Scobinancistrus etc. Furthermore they are mostly living in the woods, comparable to Cochliodon. And I am sure, that Cochliodon spawn in dells of large woods.

In my opinion the video shows territorial behaviour. I´ve seen this many times on my L 330´s and none of your Panaque has a "ready for spawning belly". The odontodes on the Interoperculum aren´t a sure sign for a gender. Femals get large odontodes as well.


cheers, Daniel

[rob rensen]

That's the problem with big panaque's....everyone thinks something but no one knowes for sure

I know what I have seen and it's no territorial beheaviour for sure

[pleco_breeder]

My success with Panaque is limited to only maccus and what I now assume was P. cochliodon, and has been quite a while. I'm not looking to start another debate, or steal the thread, so this will likely be my only post in the thread. However, I do have a couple things I can throw out there to help.

First, large Panaque can definitely be wood spawners. My only spawn from the blue eyes took place on the side of a large head of driftwood. The male had chewed a large depression out of the side of it, several inches off the tank bottom, and the clutch was laid there.

Second, based on P. maccus they can also spawn in PVC pipe.

I haven't been able to watch the video to know whether this appears to be pre-spawning behavior, but don't remember seeing much interaction in either of the tanks prior to spawning. The maccus caved regularly, but the blue eyes normally stayed separate. I didn't witness the spawn to say whether there was sparring prior to it.

Larry

[rob rensen]

Thx Larry

[Narwhal72]

Just throwing this out there for consideration.

What if they spawned in a manner similar to Acarichthys heckelli in which they lay eggs in a vertically oriented cave? I am betting in the flooded forests these fish come from that there may be lots of hollow logs/trees that these fish may use as breeding sites?

Maybe it's not so much the log or cave but it's presentation that is the barrier to this fish being spawned? Is there any information on how this species nests in the wild?

I would also like to breed this fish someday but with my largest tank available being only 120 gallons I am not sure I have the space for a big pair.

Andy

[matthewfaulkner]

Hi Rob. Like the others here, I wouldn't say that their behaviour is out of the ordinary but you're obviously best placed to judge it. And I hope it continues and develops into something, although not too far as I have aspirations to breed these fish as well

Could you explain/show what makes you think have a male and female? Is the vent picture male or female?

I have a 40cm/16" Panaque nigrolineatus (who I assume will show most sexual characteristics) that has a large amount of operculum and pectoral fin odontodes but also well developed odontodes along the trunk of it's body. The vent is large and square/blunt in shape, the pectoral fin spine is thick and the ventral/pelvic fins bulge in girth towards the centre. But these characteristics are difficult to judge with only the one fish (my other is only 23cm/9" currently).

How do you think yours compare to mine? I'll try to get some more pictures to illustrate what I mean.

[grokefish]

Oh my I completely forgot how much I love these fish since my 8yr old one died, off to the LFS me thinks.......

On topic, I dont think that is territorial behaviour, I thought it was at first but it's just not nasty enough.

My two panaques nigro and blue eyed had such violent battles I had to give the blue eye to friend.

[Firestorming]

I read an online "account" of a nigrolineatus spawn.

Apparently the fish hollowed out a nest in dense collapsed val or some similar plant.

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... naque.html

[bigamefish]

@grokefish
Wow I wish I was your friend! It isnt every day that you just get a panaque cochliodon

[ElTofi]

@Matt :

and you dare telling me you're envious of my fishes and tank ? I AM the one who should be envious about such a beauty and mature Panaque... Let's wait a 2-3 years and we'll have a talk, you and me, Matt

[rob rensen]

awesome Panaque !! Great fish

[MatsP]

I read an online "account" of a nigrolineatus spawn.

Apparently the fish hollowed out a nest in dense collapsed val or some similar plant.

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... naque.html

There are several people who have shown doubt that this is ACTUALLY a large Panaque spawn.

I heard someone say they have bred "Royal pleco" at a "Open day" at Maidenehead aquatics. I didn't actually meet the claimant myself.

I would be very surprised if these fish don't lay eggs on/in wood.

--
Mats

[rob rensen]

[[/

T

I would be very surprised if these fish don't lay eggs on/in wood.

--
Mats

I agree....we'll wait and see what happens

[Firestorming]

I met a guy here (Sydney) who went on a collecting trip to the Amazon. Anything interesting he caught went to the US and Europe with other guys on his trip as we cant bring anything in. One of the things they caught was a royal type panaque in reasonable numbers on wood and on any fallen branches, usually between 2-4cm. When he asked the local guide he told him that he had found adults with many young in soft wood holes and around tree roots. I will try to track him down and see if I can get any more info. He is a cichlid guy though so......

[Acanthicus]

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... naque.html

Realized, that the youngster in the picture is a common Ancistrus? And the shown specimens are really very small, too small I guess.

[ElTofi]

there had been a debate about this article... and most of the readers came to the same conclusion as Acanthicus...

Panaque too small to breed...
Fry looks very similar to Ancistrus fry
No decent quality picture to illustrate the "pseudo" spawning

When I first read this article, a few years ago, I must admit my heart beagan to beat faster... and then...